OT Yes, God does speak to me (and others)

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

If you don't like sunshine and rainbows, that's cool with me. My point is that people are so terrified of dying and that being the end of their existence, they are willing to believe anything that gives them an extension. I understand, you think I want to be buried in the ground and that be the end?

Do you really believe that Christianity or any other religion would be so popular if there aren't rules put in place to reward or condemn you for your actions in life? Yes, I'm sure you're one of the good people without God. I'm quite sure of that. But, I doubt very much that your belief and dedication would be quite so strong. I won't pretend to know how faithful you are, but that's just human nature, something I am very familiar with.

If we die and that's it, finito, why would that cause me to be terrified? It would be like going to sleep and never waking up. That thought causes me no ill feelings whatsoever. Then again, I have no fear of death and never have.

 

[RABID]

Faith is a conscious decision to believe in a concept which will eventually be proven as true or false.

No. Eventual proof is unnecessary for faith. Faith is independant of proof.

No, I didn’t, and you changed your statement.​

Originally, you said, “Absolute truth is the opposite of faith.” Now you are saying, “Absolute truth supersedes faith.”​

Although your second statement is more accurate than the first, I pointed out that truth and faith are two separate and distinct issues which do intersect but are not “opposites.” Faith is a conscious decision to believe in a concept which will eventually be proven as true or false. The conscious decision has no affect whatsoever on the truthfulness or falseness of the concept. Absolute truth, once revealed (absolute knowledge [which is a phrase I made up]) will either confirm or nullify the decision to believe, therefore, if it achieves both, cannot be “the opposite” thereof. The opposite of faith is not absolute truth, but rather, unbelief.​

I didn't change the statement, I expanded on the context. One is irrefutable whether you believe it or not, the other is theoretical but you believe it unconditionally. Not opposite like up vs. down, more opposite like Hot vs. Cold. There are varying degrees of hot and cold that merge into a gray area (warm), yet they are opposites nonetheless.

I will concede that faith vs. disbelief is a better oppugnant, and truth vs. lie obviously as well, but in the context of religious belief I will stand by proven vs. unprovable. You may be able to accept it as a tertiery opposite. ;P

 

[redandguilty]

I didn't change the statement, I expanded on it. One is irrefutable whether you believe it or not, the other is theoretical but you believe it unconditionally. Not opposite like up vs. down, more opposite like Hot vs. Cold. There are varying degrees of hot and cold that merge into a gray area (warm), yet they are opposites nonetheless.

I will concede that faith vs. disbelief is a better oppugnant, and truth vs. lie obviously as well, but in the context of religious belief I will stand by proven vs. unprovable.

I think this is what he was getting at in the 1st place. The opposite of true is false, but you can have faith in things that are true.

 

[RABID]

I think this is what he was getting at in the 1st place. The opposite of true is false, but you can have faith in things that are true.

Nothing in religious theory is black and white.

Faith belief that is not based on proof

Theory hypothesis, belief.
Antonyms for theory

• disbelief
• fact
• information
• reality
• truth
• calculation
• knowledge
• measurement
• proof
• certainty

Faith = belief = theory
antonym of theory = truth
/\ truth is an antonym of faith.

 

[redandguilty]

Nothing in religious theory is black and white.

Faith belief that is not based on proof

Theory hypothesis, belief.
Antonyms for theory

• disbelief
• fact
• information
• reality
• truth
• calculation
• knowledge
• measurement
• proof
• certainty

Faith = belief = theory
antonym of theory = truth
/\ truth is an antonym of faith.

You just listed the antonyms for theory. Faith and theory are not the same thing. Faith is a type of belief, but not all beliefs stem from faith, so you can't just substitute one word for the other. Google the antonyms for faith. None of these words mean truth.


disbelief
disloyalty
dishonesty
distrust
doubt
faithlessness
inconstancy
lying
treachery
uncertainty
unsteadiness
agnosticism
denial
misgiving
rejection
skepticism
suspicion
unbelief

 

[RABID]

You just listed the antonyms for theory. Faith and theory are not the same thing. Faith is a type of belief, but not all beliefs stem from faith, so you can't just substitute one word for the other. Google the antonyms for faith. None of these words mean truth.

Not my fault the google authors don't list every possibility.
I gave you the logic argument. Did you ever take philosophy?
This is why Socrates was executed.
Faith = belief = theory
antonym of theory = truth
/\ truth is an antonym of faith.

 

[redandguilty]

Not my fault the google authors don't list every possibility.
I gave you the logic argument. Did you ever take philosophy?
This is why Socrates was executed.
Faith = belief = theory
antonym of theory = truth
/\ truth is an antonym of faith.

I did not take philosophy, but the logical argument is the one (I believe) GBiA took issue with in the 1st place. That was the point of my comment, that the original objection to the statement had been resolved. That by a technical reading of the meaning of the words "truth" and "faith", they are not opposites. Faith ≠ theory (even via the word belief) since calling something a theory says nothing of whether or not it is believed, but discussing faith does say something about belief.

 

[RABID]

I did not take philosophy, but the logical argument is the one (I believe) GBiA took issue with in the 1st place. That was the point of my comment, that the original objection to the statement had been resolved. That by a technical reading of the meaning of the words "truth" and "faith", they are not opposites. Faith ≠ theory (even via the word belief) since calling something a theory says nothing of whether or not it is believed, but discussing faith does say something about belief.

Ah, but by the definition of theory it is a belief.
(Theory hypothesis, belief.)
By the definintion of faith, it is belief.
(Faith belief that is not based on proof)
Therefore by logical proof Faith = Theory.
Therefore by definition of theory being opposite of truth (ie proven vs unproven) truth IS opposite of faith.

All in context ofcourse.
Playing devils advocate with logical arguments can be mind numbing.

 

[redandguilty]

Ah, but by the definition of theory it is a belief.
(Theory hypothesis, belief.)
By the definintion of faith, it is belief.
(Faith belief that is not based on proof)
Therefore by logical proof Faith = Theory.
Therefore by definition of theory being opposite of truth (ie proven vs unproven) truth IS opposite of faith.

All in context ofcourse.
Playing devils advocate with logical arguments can be mind numbing.

Well, now I've got 2 problems. 1, somewhere in the Faith=Belief=Theory, I think we've got a fallacy of illicit minor and 2, I don't even agree that theory is the opposite of truth, even if it is listed as an antonym somewhere.

 

[RABID]

Well, now I've got 2 problems. 1, somewhere in the Faith=Belief=Theory, I think we've got a fallacy of illicit minor and 2, I don't even agree that theory is the opposite of truth, even if it is listed as an antonym somewhere.

1) She said she was 18.
2) It was on the internet so it has to be true. Are you claiming to be smarter than Roget?? ;P

Logical proofs are like statistics. If you play around with them long enough you can always manipulate the result you are looking for. (not that this one really takes much work as they are close.)
If someone is really good, it is just maddening. Like I said, Socrates was executed for pissing off the wrong people arguing ethics and logic.

I was ready for the most obviuos argument that the opposite if faith is doubt, because it is, but I'm done with this topic. It makes my head hurt too.

 

[redandguilty]

1) She said she was 18.

I feel like there's another joke here using a "ph" to spell fallacy.

 

[RABID]

I feel like there's another joke here using a "ph" to spell fallacy.

and illicit... And minor.
You weren't talking about jailbait? :hmm:
I thought you were telling me not to show my fallus to kids!:lmao:

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

Well that was fun reading as you two went round and round.

I was going to do a simple - "The opposite of faith is unbelief and unbelief is not synonymous with absolute truth, therefore faith and absolute truth are not opposites," but yours was much more entertaining.

 

[KAWDUP]

There is and has never been proof that Jesus Christ existed. I challenge you to prove me wrong. Sure, many historical figures would be difficult to prove existed, but anyone with any real kind of power or influence will have actual documentation of their existence. Some foreign leader, other men in power, church/religious leaders, somebody would have documented these things that Jesus had done. They were on such a huge scale, there is almost no way there should be no records of his life.

Sure, he may have existed. But, since nothing was written about him until decades after his death, that must be some kind of red flag for you? If he did exist and the writings about Jesus weren't fabricated, he was a likely victim of legend making. You know, that thing where you catch a little trout and by the tenth time you tell the story, it becomes a huge fish.

Either way, real or not, I will agree that Jesus had a mostly positive message. I know people that don't believe in the bible and only follow his teachings. That, to me, is a little odd, but whatever.

If you don't like sunshine and rainbows, that's cool with me. My point is that people are so terrified of dying and that being the end of their existence, they are willing to believe anything that gives them an extension. I understand, you think I want to be buried in the ground and that be the end?

Do you really believe that Christianity or any other religion would be so popular if there aren't rules put in place to reward or condemn you for your actions in life? Yes, I'm sure you're one of the good people without God. I'm quite sure of that. But, I doubt very much that your belief and dedication would be quite so strong. I won't pretend to know how faithful you are, but that's just human nature, something I am very familiar with.

By your standards, which are purely how much was written about them, there would be a huge number of historical figures that you couldn't prove existed.

If Jesus wasn't a religious figure, but just some king of the ancient world, you would be using Him as an example of someone who you could prove existed - a bit of a double-standard. The sheer number of mentions in historical texts other than the Bible would stand to prove you wrong.

. . . and quite the contrary, not having anything written down for several decades after his death, is more of an affirmation than a red flag. Think of the believers that truly had to believe in Jesus and the resurrection to have it survive as long as it did, and better than that, as long as it has.

You can't possibly believe, that because there are rules in place, that that is the sole reason that religion is so popular. We can agree to disagree on this one, but this does not take very much out of my argument at all.

You also need to separate religion from God and Jesus to some extent. The two are NOT equivalent. You can have a religion that worships false gods, but that has nothing to do with what we know and believe about God and Jesus. Can you have bad religions - of course - but I can separate the two very easily.

Believing in an after-life is a very complex subject. First you must decide what that "life" might even be like. You way over-simplify it by saying people believe in a soul, resurrection, and an after-life purely out of fear of dying. You are projecting that simplicity on everyone that believes in those things, and that is just plain wrong. I can find you many, many people that believe in those things that do not fear death in any way.

 

[KAWDUP]

Ah, but by the definition of theory it is a belief.
(Theory hypothesis, belief.)
By the definintion of faith, it is belief.
(Faith belief that is not based on proof)
Therefore by logical proof Faith = Theory.
Therefore by definition of theory being opposite of truth (ie proven vs unproven) truth IS opposite of faith.

All in context ofcourse.
Playing devils advocate with logical arguments can be mind numbing.

Right but I did take logic, and at least 4-5 philosophy courses, and this "logical" argument falls apart very quickly.

Here is an analogy of how logically you go wrong:
A car is a vehicle
A bus is a vehicle

Therefore a car is a bus?

Using "opposite of", or "not equal to" does not change the fact you are trying to apply the transitive relation incorrectly.

a is similar to b, c is the opposite of b, therefore a is always the opposite of c? You don't see how this construct is wrought with logical problems?

If you took logic you already know that converses of logically true relational statements are often not true.

That is what you have in your truth is the opposite of faith "proof". On top of all that - I am sure I can provide many chains of words that are antonyms and synonyms of each other where it most certainly does not hold that the ends of those chains are related at all let alone equal to each other. Using definitions of words just complicates it.

I think therefore I exist.
I also think about my car
My car exists
I think about God
God exists?

If you want to show an equivalence such that you can use the transitive logic property in your argument ( a=b, b=c, therefore a=c) , we need to introduce the word "every" in your argument - is every theory a belief - maybe. Is every belief a theory - definitely not. If I find one theory that is not a belief, or one belief that is not a theory, does that disprove your argument?

 

[redandguilty]

If you want to show an equivalence such that you can use the transitive logic property in your argument ( a=b, b=c, therefore a=c) , we need to introduce the word "every" in your argument - is every theory a belief - maybe. Is every belief a theory - definitely not. If I find one theory that is not a belief, or one belief that is not a theory, does that disprove your argument?

He already explained. 18 years old, therefore, not illicit minor.

 

[KAWDUP]

He already explained. 18 years old, therefore, not illicit minor.

:hmm::shrug::nuts:

 

[redandguilty]

:hmm::shrug::nuts:

The A=B, B=C, ∴A=C fallacy is called illicit minor.

 

[KAWDUP]

The A=B, B=C, ∴A=C fallacy is called illicit minor.

Oh - OK - I guess I am familiar with syllogistic fallacy, but hadn't heard of this illicit minor and illicit major and also figured he was saying the statements were logically valid. Illicit minor possibly based in Latin somehow? Is this part of that new math I have heard so much about?

damn
. . . never mind . . . Sorry RABID

Go Blue?

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

This thread has certainly ranged far and wide from the intended purpose, but there has been some great conversation had by many.

Here is the story some of you have been waiting for...the last one.

In the summer of 1991 my wife and I found ourselves laid off. We were both born and raised in Michigan, so we had become accustomed to the roller coaster economy since everything in the metro Detroit area is tied to the automotive industry. We would either be working 55 hours a week or be laid off.

As I began my job search, for some reason Atlanta became the focus of my attention. I began praying that the Lord would move us to Atlanta and found a bookstore in Dearborn that carried the Atlanta newspaper and would get one every Monday morning in order to check the classifieds and mail r?sum?s (talk about old-school). I must admit I tired of that after several months and discontinued. For the next two years, however, I continued to pray that the Lord would move us to Atlanta. The problem was, we didn?t know a soul in Georgia, which meant God would have to make it happen. In spite of that, Atlanta remained on my mind and in my prayers.

In May of 1993 I was at work (in an underemployed position) one day when I received a call from my wife. She was very excited. She had just received a call from an acquaintance of ours whom we hadn?t seen in years. He started out with, ?We?re starting a company down here in Atlanta, Georgia and I would like to discuss a position with your husband.? As she told me about their conversation, my heart immediately jumped because I knew this was the answer to my prayers of the last two years.

When I got home that evening I returned his phone call and briefly discussed the position. He said that several former Dominoes execs were starting a company with venture capital and that he and the VP were discussing the positions they needed to fill when my name ?popped into his head.? Now, this was not a friend I had spent a lot of time with and who knew me and my work experience, yet my name somehow popped into his head. And, of all the cities across this great nation, they just happened to be locating in Atlanta.

He said he would be flying to Michigan on Friday evening and we could meet on Saturday to discuss the details. My wife and I talked about the meeting and listed five issues that would have to be resolved in order to move. Some of them we could have made happen while others we had no control over. We decided that we would take our hands off of these five issues and pray that if this was indeed God?s answer to my prayers that He would have to deal with them.

By the time we went to meet with Wayne on Saturday, the first four issues had already been resolved in less than a week. We did nothing to make them occur, yet one by one they fell like dominoes. Each day we became more and more confident that this was the Lord working this out because everything was going so smoothly even though we had no control over it. As we discussed the position I became excited about going down and beginning to work for this start-up company. As we spoke I felt more and more comfortable that this was what God wanted us to do. However, there was still issue number five that had to be addressed. To close our discussion, Wayne sat back in his chair and revealed the amount of the salary for the position. It was exactly the amount my wife and I had agreed upon and prayed for.

So, was my desire to move to Atlanta my idea or did God plant it in me because He wanted us here? I tend to believe the latter as He led us to a church plant (start-up) located 10 minutes from our house, pastored by a man who grew up in Dearborn Heights, no more than 15 minutes from where I lived as a kid and is a big Michigan fan. We discovered that we had many, many friends in common though we had never met until we moved 700 miles to Georgia. Our family stayed at that church for 14 years before the Lord moved us to our current church.

Explanation of the five issues:

Having been unemployed, then underemployed, we didn?t have any savings to use for my trip down ahead of the family. I could have borrowed some money as my parents have always been very generous, but God provided everything that was needed in two different ways:

1. I couldn?t afford a hotel or apartment for any length of time - ?Out of the blue,? I remembered that a friend had mentioned that his brother had moved down to Georgia many years previous. I called my friend and asked if he would contact his brother to see if it would be possible for me to stay with them for a few months until I could move the family down. Not only did he say I could stay with them, and that he just happened to be in the vicinity of my new job, but also that he would put me up for free.

2. Needed money for the actual trip down ? On the spur of the moment one day, I decided to go play my last 9 holes of golf before moving to Georgia and as I was teeing up on #1 a guy came running up and said the pro told him to hurry and join me (if he had arrived 5 minutes later we wouldn?t have been paired up). During the round he said he was going to buy some new clubs, so I showed him mine and told him that I made them. He hired me to make him a set. (The only set I've ever been paid to make.) I made enough money from that set of clubs for my trip down to Georgia and also to fix the car for the trip. (Item #4).

3. Had to sell our home - My cousin called us when she heard that we were moving to Georgia and said she wanted to buy our home. Never listed it and the sale sailed through smoothly.

4. The car had to be fixed for the trip - See #2.

5. Salary required to accept the job - As stated above, God provided exactly what we had asked for. We should have asked for more!