OT Yes, God does speak to me (and others)

[RABID]

Having command of all the weapons didn't hurt, either.

Yes, but the PEOPLE were the weapons. Weilding stones=>clubs => spears => axes => swords => bows => guns.
Commanding was all that mattered. "Say Anything" could have been a movie about ruling in early human history! >

 

[KAWDUP]

I don't think anyone has refuted the existance of Jesus. It would be like refuting the existance of Plato or even Mohammed.

I think what is being refuted is whether religion is truth, or a powerful tool created by ancient leaders to unite and command the populations through stories. By answering their questions of where did we come from, why should we listen to you, and what happens when we die. Only the scholars and social elite could read and write back then. The peasants and slaves had to take their word for it, and they needed a scheme to stay in power.

So is that really how you think Christianity took hold? They were never persecuted or killed for their beliefs, right?

While it is true that it didn't spread world-wide until Constantine did what you said and made it the state religion, I suspect it would have survived all the same. Just another belief I have, I guess.

Look how long the Bible was passed around by word of mouth before any of it was ever written down. I'm sure those wanderers who told the stories early on wanted to control everybody.

 

[Michchamp]

 

[Michchamp]

 

[RABID]

So is that really how you think Christianity took hold? They were never persecuted or killed for their beliefs, right?

While it is true that it didn't spread world-wide until Constantine did what you said and made it the state religion, I suspect it would have survived all the same. Just another belief I have, I guess.

Look how long the Bible was passed around by word of mouth before any of it was ever written down. I'm sure those wanderers who told the stories early on wanted to control everybody.

Not necessarily cut and dried like that, but nothing so complicated is all black and white. Many many things had to happen for this scenerio to unfold and it takes a huge amount of true believers to cause such a massive domino effect through the years. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it is still a possibility.

There are no witnesses alive today. After all, according to the bible even Adam, Noah, and Methuselah only lived into their 900s.

 

[Michchamp]

Not necessarily cut and dried like that, but nothing so complicated is all black and white. Many many things had to happen for this scenerio to unfold and it takes a huge amount of true believers to cause such a massive domino effect through the years. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it is still a possibility.

There are no witnesses alive today. After all, according to the bible even Adam, Noah, and Methuselah only lived into their 900s.

Methuselah?

I tell you what, he don't look a day over 750.

 

[RABID]

Methuselah?

I tell you what, he don't look a day over 750.

Oh yes. He holds the record at 969 years old. I wonder if he needed Viagra, if it even worked, or would he just shoot dust? poof-poof-poof :hmm:

Patriarch Age Bible Reference 1 Adam 930 Genesis 5:4 2 Seth 912 Genesis 5:8 3 Enosh 905 Genesis 5:11 4 Cainan 910 Genesis 5:14 5 Mahalalel 895 Genesis 5:17 6 Jared 962 Genesis 5:20 7 Enoch 365 (translated) Genesis 5:23 8 Methuselah 969 Genesis 5:27 9 Lamech 777 Genesis 5:31 10 Noah 950 Genesis 9:29

-edit- This was a table I looked up real quick

 

[Michchamp]

i think maybe they got the translations of months-years wrong. although 969 months is still 80 years. long time in those days! or maybe whoever wrote/translated the Bible was stupid. or a liar.

 

[Monster]

From a wiki, but still widely accepted:

Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and although there is little agreement on the historicity of gospel narratives and their theological assertions of his divinity, biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted. Most scholars agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born between 7 and 2 BC and died 30?36 AD. Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea, did not preach or study elsewhere and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and possibly Greek. Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and shortly afterwards was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

I have no idea why you keep referring to sunshine and rainbows. What if I hate sunshine and rainbows? Don't tell me you are using an idiom to comment on all of Christendom - pretty stereotypical. Especially since all evidence on this board seems to run contrary to that.

One other thing: salvation is an adjunct to believing in the resurrection, not an excuse to believe in God and Jesus.

There is and has never been proof that Jesus Christ existed. I challenge you to prove me wrong. Sure, many historical figures would be difficult to prove existed, but anyone with any real kind of power or influence will have actual documentation of their existence. Some foreign leader, other men in power, church/religious leaders, somebody would have documented these things that Jesus had done. They were on such a huge scale, there is almost no way there should be no records of his life.

Sure, he may have existed. But, since nothing was written about him until decades after his death, that must be some kind of red flag for you? If he did exist and the writings about Jesus weren't fabricated, he was a likely victim of legend making. You know, that thing where you catch a little trout and by the tenth time you tell the story, it becomes a huge fish.

Either way, real or not, I will agree that Jesus had a mostly positive message. I know people that don't believe in the bible and only follow his teachings. That, to me, is a little odd, but whatever.

If you don't like sunshine and rainbows, that's cool with me. My point is that people are so terrified of dying and that being the end of their existence, they are willing to believe anything that gives them an extension. I understand, you think I want to be buried in the ground and that be the end?

Do you really believe that Christianity or any other religion would be so popular if there aren't rules put in place to reward or condemn you for your actions in life? Yes, I'm sure you're one of the good people without God. I'm quite sure of that. But, I doubt very much that your belief and dedication would be quite so strong. I won't pretend to know how faithful you are, but that's just human nature, something I am very familiar with.

 

[redandguilty]

There is and has never been proof that Jesus Christ existed.

I didn't get past the 1st line of this post. Thinking of the significance of adding "and has never been" to the claim.

edit: kept reading, quit worrying about that phrase.

 

[tinselwolverine]

There is and has never been proof that Jesus Christ existed.

There's fairly close to as much proof that historical Jesus existed as there is that Augustus Caesar and Pontious Pilate existed. I can't remember their names off the top of my head; but both Roman and Jewish historians of the time recounted Jesus's life - in a purely historical, objective context.

 

[Monster]

There's fairly close to as much proof that historical Jesus existed as there is that Augustus Caesar and Pontious Pilate existed. I can't remember their names off the top of my head; but both Roman and Jewish historians of the time recounted Jesus's life - in a purely historical, objective context.

Are you speaking of Josephus? The guy was born after Jesus died. And there's another I can't actually think of. Name starts with a Ph, i believe. He never met Jesus, only wrote down things that he was told. That's really the best resources for proof that I know of. I know you didn't bring it up, but the shroud of turin is also not proof that he was real...only proof that someone dead had been wrapped in it. Too many people try to use this as proof.

And don't give me that crap that there's as much proof of jesus as to Pilate and Caesar. You know that's a completely false statement. As with all history, things were probably a bit different about them as they are taught now, but there is definite proof that they were born and eventually died.

Again, I'm not saying Jesus wasn't real. Only that there is no proof.

 

[redandguilty]

Only that there is no proof.

...and never was.

 

[tinselwolverine]

And don't give me that crap that there's as much proof of jesus as to Pilate and Caesar. You know that's a completely false statement.

Man, this is pretty testy for you.

 

[redandguilty]

Is there actually definite proof that Pilate died?

I'm not saying he didn't.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Is there actually definite proof that Pilate died?

I'm not saying he didn't.

Actually there's not. He walked out of the garrison one day, and was never heard from again.

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

PS - Lots of good discussion while I was gone. The new job is consuming my time.

Looks like I spoke too soon.

​

Shortly after posting this, those who are neither intelligent enough to join the conversation, nor respectful of posters on either side of the discussion, stood back and threw verbal hand grenades or posted incendiary photos because they feel inadequate if they don’t have some kind of impact on the discussion. Man up and join the conversation respectfully. This is Michigan fergodsake.

​

Once again I applaud those who have contributed to this thread and have shown respect to the “other side.”​

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

Didn't you just reinforce what I said after refuting it? Yes you did.

Absolute truth is fact, unalterable, permanant.
Faith is confidence, trust, belief without proof.

When a fact is proven, it replaces faith.
Absolute truth supersedes faith.

No, I didn’t, and you changed your statement.


Originally, you said, “Absolute truth is the opposite of faith.” Now you are saying, “Absolute truth supersedes faith.”


Although your second statement is more accurate than the first, I pointed out that truth and faith are two separate and distinct issues which do intersect but are not “opposites.” Faith is a conscious decision to believe in a concept which will eventually be proven as true or false. The conscious decision has no affect whatsoever on the truthfulness or falseness of the concept. Absolute truth, once revealed (absolute knowledge [which is a phrase I made up]) will either confirm or nullify the decision to believe, therefore, if it achieves both, cannot be “the opposite” thereof. The opposite of faith is not absolute truth, but rather, unbelief.​

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

But, you assume that God is real when you speak of these things. Yes, in a book, Jesus was nailed to a cross. Yes, in a book, you can go to Heaven if you believe. There are other holy books out there, you know? They say different things, so why not believe in them?

And, yes, in a book that I live my life by, I don't expect to read certain phrases like, "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever."

It's all sunshine and rainbows for Christians and they constantly deny the evils of the bible, all because they desire to not disappear after they die. I understand that death is scary, but that doesn't mean there has to be something after.

Monster, you’ve done the “out of context” thing again.

You selected a limited portion of scripture, pulled it from it’s surrounding text, posted it without any explanation of the Who, What, Where, When, Why and left the reader to interpret the writing according to his or her own life experience and knowledge. This method is misleading.

Obviously, anyone reading this portion of text is going to couch it in “early American slave culture” as that is what we are most familiar. Society at the time of the writing of that scripture and the context in which it was given was wholly and distinctly different. This writing was TO Jewish masters ABOUT Jewish slaves. It in NO WAY mirrors the white American plantation owners’ forceful slavery of black slaves abducted from their homeland and in a perpetual state of servitude.

If you want to have a discussion about the overall context of the slavery you are trying to illuminate in a negative way, I would be happy to engage in that discussion. You’ve shown to this point a desire to understand because it is apparent you have studied the Bible to some extent, so I applaud your interest in finding the truth.​

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

There is and has never been proof that Jesus Christ existed. I challenge you to prove me wrong. Sure, many historical figures would be difficult to prove existed, but anyone with any real kind of power or influence will have actual documentation of their existence. Some foreign leader, other men in power, church/religious leaders, somebody would have documented these things that Jesus had done. They were on such a huge scale, there is almost no way there should be no records of his life.

Sure, he may have existed. But, since nothing was written about him until decades after his death, that must be some kind of red flag for you? If he did exist and the writings about Jesus weren't fabricated, he was a likely victim of legend making. You know, that thing where you catch a little trout and by the tenth time you tell the story, it becomes a huge fish.

I will leave that to those more informed on the subject, but I can direct you to a book titled, “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel, a Yale Law School-educated, award-winning reporter for the Chicago Tribune for 13 years and also an avowed atheist, who went to West Virginia (if memory serves) to cover a story and encountered back-woods, illiterate, Christian hicks.



He set out to show just how ignorant and stupid they were. He investigated the historical, scientific, psychiatric, and other evidences of Christ’s life and came away with an entirely different result than expected.


I will let the investigative journalist take it from there.​