Russian contractors fight US coalition forces.

[Gulo Blue]

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-02-16/russia-attacked-u-s-troops-in-syria

Bloomberg is saying Mathis is telling a 'noble lie' in acting like we don't know what happened and this was a mistake so that things don't escalate, but over 200 Russians were killed in the response.

 

[Michchamp]

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-02-16/russia-attacked-u-s-troops-in-syria

Bloomberg is saying Mathis is telling a 'noble lie' in acting like we don't know what happened and this was a mistake so that things don't escalate, but over 200 Russians were killed in the response.

I love the headline... really plays on the ignorance of the US public, failing to question why our troops are even in Syria, after the last two years of "why aren't we in Syria?" and "someone needs to stop this madnan Assad" editorials from US media. all these credulous headlines demanding action, meanwhile, without public debate or apparent congressional action, surprise! our troops are there in force.

but really WTF are we doing there?

up until now, I figured the interventionism for defense industry profit would always end before it got us into a war with someone who could punch back, but now I'm not so sure. our leadership in this regard is really dumb, like REALLY DUMB.

 

[turok]

Selling the idea that more military spending is necessary to keep the Bear @ bay, seems like leaking this incident would provide a clandestine push for that, as well as likely more to come.

 

[Michchamp]

Selling the idea that more military spending is necessary to keep the Bear @ bay, seems like leaking this incident would provide a clandestine push for that, as well as likely more to come.

yep.

send troops to war zone -> bomb & attack people in war zone -> troops get attacked in return -> attack is now threat to national security -> need more money to counter "new threat"

history isn't going to be kind to America, unless we manage to overcome this chapter without destroying ourselves and much of the planet.

 

[Gulo Blue]

history isn't going to be kind to America, unless we manage to overcome this chapter without destroying ourselves and much of the planet.

We're the worst, other than everyone else.

 

[Michchamp]

We're the worst, other than everyone else.

look at global arms sales, the number of places we have troops, and the number of countries currently all fucked up because of us.

no one else is anywhere close. I don't see the point in engaging in hypotheticals

 

[Gulo Blue]

look at global arms sales, the number of places we have troops, and the number of countries currently all fucked up because of us.

no one else is anywhere close. I don't see the point in engaging in hypotheticals

Seriously?

WWII
The Marshall Plan
Norman Borlaug (I think they say there are 0.5-1 billion extra people in the world thanks to Borlaug, which is a lot of suffering averted.)

Technology - the suspension bridge, the light bulb, photographic film, the skyscraper, the airplane, much of computer technology, much of automotive technology, much of medical technology, nylon, the microwave oven, integrated circuits, lasers, LED lighting, fiber optics, GPS, the internet, credit cards.

I'm pretty sure the only way you can rank nations by their philanthropical contributions and not have the US come out on top is to divide by GDP (not population) which says more about Wall Street than how great Americans are.

 

[Polish-Hammer]

Seriously?

WWII
The Marshall Plan
Norman Borlaug (I think they say there are 0.5-1 billion extra people in the world thanks to Borlaug, which is a lot of suffering averted.)

Technology - the suspension bridge, the light bulb, photographic film, the skyscraper, the airplane, much of computer technology, much of automotive technology, much of medical technology, nylon, the microwave oven, integrated circuits, lasers, LED lighting, fiber optics, GPS, the internet, credit cards.

I'm pretty sure the only way you can rank nations by their philanthropical contributions and not have the US come out on top is to divide by GDP (not population) which says more about Wall Street than how great Americans are.

Yes, lets skip the annihilation of the native population.

Hiroshima/Nagasaki

Hell, even the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Lets include bombing of Dresden. 20k+ civilian deaths, many of whom fled the GREAT RAPE coming from the east.

Division of Korea into North/South and the subsequent civil war.
After US forces took most of Korea, China intervened in the war. They wanted their seat on the security council instead of Taiwan a little island where the Nationalists took refuse after losing the civil war.


Multiple US backed coups in Cambodia which eventually lead to the Khmer Rouge taking power after country was left in massive chaos.

Congo - supporting overthrow democratically elected government in Congo and killing its leader leading to decades of war and instability

Persia (Iran) - overthrow of democratically elected government to install a dictator. Dictator was overthrown in 1979, US immediate response is to provide weapons and intelligence to their good friend Saddam to invade. Lets forget that little incident where US navy illegally entered Persian waters and "accidentally" shot down a civilian air liner.

Provided weapons, training, money to the Mujahadine largely via Pakistani intelligence including elements that would grow into al-queda.

US also backed the military coup against the democratic government of Syria in the late 1940s.

Its been almost 15 years, did you find justification for invading Iraq? Right.... I'll wait another 15 years.

The irrational and absurd embargo of cuba. Lets skip over the part when fighting in Cuba against the Spanish their independance was promised and never delivered.


I mean there is many many many many many more examples.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Yes, lets skip the annihilation of the native population.

Hiroshima/Nagasaki

Hell, even the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Lets include bombing of Dresden. 20k+ civilian deaths, many of whom fled the GREAT RAPE coming from the east.

Division of Korea into North/South and the subsequent civil war.
After US forces took most of Korea, China intervened in the war. They wanted their seat on the security council instead of Taiwan a little island where the Nationalists took refuse after losing the civil war.


Multiple US backed coups in Cambodia which eventually lead to the Khmer Rouge taking power after country was left in massive chaos.

Congo - supporting overthrow democratically elected government in Congo and killing its leader leading to decades of war and instability

Persia (Iran) - overthrow of democratically elected government to install a dictator. Dictator was overthrown in 1979, US immediate response is to provide weapons and intelligence to their good friend Saddam to invade. Lets forget that little incident where US navy illegally entered Persian waters and "accidentally" shot down a civilian air liner.

Provided weapons, training, money to the Mujahadine largely via Pakistani intelligence including elements that would grow into al-queda.

US also backed the military coup against the democratic government of Syria in the late 1940s.

Its been almost 15 years, did you find justification for invading Iraq? Right.... I'll wait another 15 years.

The irrational and absurd embargo of cuba. Lets skip over the part when fighting in Cuba against the Spanish their independance was promised and never delivered.


I mean there is many many many many many more examples.

I'm not skipping it. But sadly, this is pretty much world history. Nations hurting other nations has always been the norm. Nations helping other nation is the exception. Who has done more for others then the US?

 

[Michchamp]

I'm not skipping it. But sadly, this is pretty much world history. Nations hurting other nations has always been the norm. Nations helping other nation is the exception. Who has done more for others then the US?

um... it's not that the bad things nullify the good things, it's more that a lot of the "good things" we did for less-than-altruistic purposes.

The Marshall Plan was done out of fear that if we didn't DUMP money into ruined post-war Europe, they would easily side with the USSR.

Similarly, many, if not most, of our cultural efforts during the Cold War were later revealed to be CIA fronts aimed at undermining the USSR.

And I don't think credit for inventions and technology goes to the government... unless you want to count all the other things they directly funded (Manhattan Project, chemical and biological warfare, cluster bombs, napalm, etc. )

 

[Gulo Blue]

um... it's not that the bad things nullify the good things, it's more that a lot of the "good things" we did for less-than-altruistic purposes.

The Marshall Plan was done out of fear that if we didn't DUMP money into ruined post-war Europe, they would easily side with the USSR.

Similarly, many, if not most, of our cultural efforts during the Cold War were later revealed to be CIA fronts aimed at undermining the USSR.

And I don't think credit for inventions and technology goes to the government... unless you want to count all the other things they directly funded (Manhattan Project, chemical and biological warfare, cluster bombs, napalm, etc. )

I don't give the government the credit for the technology. The government isn't all there is to America. Same for the philanthropy. That didn't come from the government. It did come from Americans. For all the bad, we excel at doing good. At least if you compare us to everyone else.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Crap, where is Tinsel's post about Russian influence on our board. I found 2 anti-Americans right here!

 

[tinselwolverine]

Hiroshima/Nagasaki

Hell, even the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

To be fair, there kinda was that little Pearl Harbor thing that happened first.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Crap, where is Tinsel's post about Russian influence on our board. I found 2 anti-Americans right here!

Aqui.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I don't give the government the credit for the technology. The government isn't all there is to America. Same for the philanthropy. That didn't come from the government. It did come from Americans. For all the bad, we excel at doing good. At least if you compare us to everyone else.

I just asked my wife "what do I say about the United States? We are the worst and most corrupt country in the world..." and she finished "except for everyone else."

I will admit, I do kind of borrow from Churchill about democracy and capitalism there...

 

[Gulo Blue]

I just asked my wife "what do I say about the United States? We are the worst and most corrupt country in the world..." and she finished "except for everyone else."

I will admit, I do kind of borrow from Churchill about democracy and capitalism there...

It's important to criticize America for its faults, but if that criticism doesn't rest on a bedrock understanding that America is the best thing that's happened for humanity, I shall fight you on the beaches, I shall fight on the landing grounds, I shall fight in the fields and in the streets, I shall fight in the hills; I will never surrender.

 

[tinselwolverine]

It's important to criticize America for its faults, but if that criticism doesn't rest on a bedrock understanding that America is the best thing that's happened for humanity, I shall fight you on the beaches, I shall fight on the landing grounds, I shall fight in the fields and in the streets, I shall fight in the hills; I will never surrender.

Yes.

The beacon of light in the darkness.

 

[tinselwolverine]

To be fair, there kinda was that little Pearl Harbor thing that happened first.

EDIT: Oh and their partners were kind of doing this little thing called the Holocaust.

It kind of had something to do with Poland, as I understand it.

 

[Polish-Hammer]

To be fair, there kinda was that little Pearl Harbor thing that happened first.

Well we are talking about military targets vs civilian targets.



Pearl Harbour was reaction to US trying to dictate Japanese foreign policy.

Admitted the attack on Pearl Harbour, was but a less successful copy of the Port of Taranto raid by the British.


Essentially, the Japs wanted to eliminate the US navy in 1 major battle like they did to the Russian Baltic fleet during the Russo-Japanese war. Which was.... a bad move.


If you are concerned with Russian meddling with US elections, keep in mind USA meddled with Russian elections in the 90s.... difference is they were much more successful than the Russians.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Well we are talking about military targets vs civilian targets.



Pearl Harbour was reaction to US trying to dictate Japanese foreign policy.

Admitted the attack on Pearl Harbour, was but a less successful copy of the Port of Taranto raid by the British.


Essentially, the Japs wanted to eliminate the US navy in 1 major battle like they did to the Russian Baltic fleet during the Russo-Japanese war. Which was.... a bad move.


If you are concerned with Russian meddling with US elections, keep in mind USA meddled with Russian elections in the 90s.... difference is they were much more successful than the Russians.

This is about as cogent and transparently logical/rationale in its transitions and sequence as the Unabomber Manifesto.