Syria

[redandguilty]

I need to start paying more attention to Syria. Skimming headlines there are two developments that stick out. One: Israel says they have proof Assad used chemical weapon against the rebels, which Obama previously called the red line that the US would not tolerate. Apparently England and France agree with Israel that that line has been crossed. Two: the most successful (I'm not sure if they're the largest) rebel group has announced that it has joined Al-Qaeda.

 

[Michchamp]

does al-qaeda still really exist?

I know they're supposed to be this uniform, consistently evil force that we oppose (like Cobra in a GI Joe cartoon), but really... I would wager outside of the U.S. people don't use the term. and if they do, it doesn't mean the same thing we think it does.

anywho... all I know about Syria is that I don't know enough about Syria, or the Middle East to really understand what's going on there. However, I suspect Assad is actually who most world governments want to see retain power, hence there has not yet been any official intervention, other than Israel bombing that one shipment of missiles.

we've been talking out of both sides of our mouth regarding "democracy" in the Middle East for so long, it should be obvious that isn't our real concern. We were silent on Tunisia, then tried to spin the result as a triumph for democracy. We intervened in Libya (on behalf of "democracy") and left the place a bloody mess. We actively supported Mubarak and the Egyptian military, then tried to spin our lukewarm support of the demonstrations as support for "democracy"...

We've ticked off the Turks, who are now exchanging fire with Syria and apparently in an outright war with the Kurdish quasi-state in Northern Iraq.

some right-wing pundits tried to tie this all to Bush's invasion of Iraq, spinning it as an intentional benefit of that shining beacon of democracy we propped up in Baghdad... ignoring the fact that we were now publicly praising the overthrow of governments we were actively supporting and supplying with arms for years!

In Syria's case, we've drawn this line in the sand, and then ignored it. Obama condemned killing civilians, but everyone can do that, and it's not a controversial position. Not sure if he's gone so far as to call for Assad to be thrown out. apparently we are actively supplying the rebels now. Russian, China, and Iran have been supplying Assad's regime.

I'm sure everyone is making money on this, and so for the time being might just be content churning the pot and selling them arms, while hoping it doesn't spread.

 

[byco42]

When one tyrant is trying to usurp power from another tyrant, what difference does it make who wins?

 

[redandguilty]

does al-qaeda still really exist?

I know they're supposed to be this uniform, consistently evil force that we oppose (like Cobra in a GI Joe cartoon), but really... I would wager outside of the U.S. people don't use the term. and if they do, it doesn't mean the same thing we think it does.

It was changing while bin Laden was alive. He reportedly wanted to change the name and "re-brand" or whatever you want to call it. But there still is an Al Qaeda. They published the magazine with the pressure cooker bomb instructions the Boston guys used.

 

[redandguilty]

When one tyrant is trying to usurp power from another tyrant, what difference does it make who wins?

It matters when you're supplying one of them. If your side loses, you can walk away. If your side wins, you own that mess.

 

[byco42]

It matters when you're supplying one of them. If your side loses, you can walk away. If your side wins, you own that mess.

I guess my point is let them fight it out or eviscerate both sides at the same time. But don't support one over the other.

 

[Michchamp]

I guess my point is let them fight it out or eviscerate both sides at the same time. But don't support one over the other.

you are not American defense industry material. you should hear the word "conflict" and see dollar signs.

 

[Michchamp]

When one tyrant is trying to usurp power from another tyrant, what difference does it make who wins?

when the Syrian conflict/rebellion started, I watched a video of a group of Syrian officers stating their reasons for deserting Assad. It was actually quite principled and based on his use of violence against the people, which conflicted with their sworn duty to defend and protect the nation.

not sure how many of them are still alive, and I know there are a lot of various factions in Syria fighting Assad, but I don't think it's as clear as one tyrant fighting another. You'd like to see good people win (for once) and for us to actually support good people (for once... since maybe South Korea?), but as usually, wars are messy and no one is ever innocent, and the innocent usually don't survive very long... so it will probably boil down to us supporting a new Assad because the old one has lost the iron grip and can't keep his people in line.

 

[redandguilty]

when the Syrian conflict/rebellion started, I watched a video of a group of Syrian officers stating their reasons for deserting Assad. It was actually quite principled and based on his use of violence against the people, which conflicted with their sworn duty to defend and protect the nation.

not sure how many of them are still alive, and I know there are a lot of various factions in Syria fighting Assad, but I don't think it's as clear as one tyrant fighting another. You'd like to see good people win (for once) and for us to actually support good people (for once... since maybe South Korea?), but as usually, wars are messy and no one is ever innocent, and the innocent usually don't survive very long... so it will probably boil down to us supporting a new Assad because the old one has lost the iron grip and can't keep his people in line.

Yup. The rebels aren't calling themselves Al Qaeda. One group of about 5,000 is. Other rebels are upset about it.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...tion-syria-rebels-decry-al-qaeda-interlopers/

 

[byco42]

you are not American defense industry material. you should hear the word "conflict" and see dollar signs.

I guess I'm glad for that. Taylor Caldwell: read her book Dynasty of Death?

 

[tinselwolverine]

Yup. The rebels aren't calling themselves Al Qaeda. One group of about 5,000 is. Other rebels are upset about it.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...tion-syria-rebels-decry-al-qaeda-interlopers/

Wow.

Unbelieveable stuff.

Gwynneth Paltrow is People magazines most beautiful woman in the world?

 

[byco42]

when the Syrian conflict/rebellion started, I watched a video of a group of Syrian officers stating their reasons for deserting Assad. It was actually quite principled and based on his use of violence against the people, which conflicted with their sworn duty to defend and protect the nation.

not sure how many of them are still alive, and I know there are a lot of various factions in Syria fighting Assad, but I don't think it's as clear as one tyrant fighting another. You'd like to see good people win (for once) and for us to actually support good people (for once... since maybe South Korea?), but as usually, wars are messy and no one is ever innocent, and the innocent usually don't survive very long... so it will probably boil down to us supporting a new Assad because the old one has lost the iron grip and can't keep his people in line.

The Syrian rebels are killing Christians, that's documented. Imagine what will happen if they win.

 

[redandguilty]

Wow.

Unbelieveable stuff.

Gwynneth Paltrow is People magazines most beautiful woman in the world?

Her?

 

[tinselwolverine]

Her?

Yeah.

Who would have thought?

 

[Michchamp]

The Syrian rebels are killing Christians, that's documented. Imagine what will happen if they win.

some of the Syrian rebels are killing Christians.

okay.

well, that's a bad thing.

Would hate to see people getting targeted solely on the basis of their religion. hope the religious extremists among the rebels don't emerge as the leaders. I hope we - or anyone other foreign powers - don't intervene and screw this up so that religious extremists come out on top. that seems to be our M.O. though, since we're not very good at these things, and far from any sort of principled actions, we (i.e. our military brass and the defense contractors they go work for when they retire) typically invade and intervene with the goal of staying as long as possible and/or making as much money as possible, so I don't expect whatever happens in Syria to be different. if the religious extremists offer the people the only alternative to endless raids, warfare, and anarchy, you can't really blame them from taking their side. that's what happened in Afghanistan thanks to the Soviet invasion, and our arming of the Mujahadeen there whcih became the Taliban.

 

[redandguilty]

hope the religious extremists among the rebels don't emerge as the leaders.

I don't know how much internet access they have over there, but I think it's one of the drivers of our political extremists rising to power here.

 

[byco42]

some of the Syrian rebels are killing Christians.

okay.

well, that's a bad thing.

Would hate to see people getting targeted solely on the basis of their religion. hope the religious extremists among the rebels don't emerge as the leaders. I hope we - or anyone other foreign powers - don't intervene and screw this up so that religious extremists come out on top. that seems to be our M.O. though, since we're not very good at these things, and far from any sort of principled actions, we (i.e. our military brass and the defense contractors they go work for when they retire) typically invade and intervene with the goal of staying as long as possible and/or making as much money as possible, so I don't expect whatever happens in Syria to be different. if the religious extremists offer the people the only alternative to endless raids, warfare, and anarchy, you can't really blame them from taking their side. that's what happened in Afghanistan thanks to the Soviet invasion, and our arming of the Mujahadeen there whcih became the Taliban.

Were I president, all American troops would be home by the time Michigan played ND this season. Can't fight to mediate conflicts that are centuries old and will be as vibrant centuries from now.

 

[Michchamp]

I don't know how much internet access they have over there, but I think it's one of the drivers of our political extremists rising to power here.

I don't.

I think in the 1990's, the GOP made their "deal with the devil." The anti-government crowd, the militia crowd, the fascists, and religious fundamentalists were no longer viewed as completely insane. Newt Gingrich and his buddies may not have endorsed their views exactly, but were willing to concede they had a "point."

you can understand why they were frustrated, what with that Communist Revolutionary Bill Clinton in the White House, seizing their property via his communist federal taxes (which were apparently non existent prior to 1992?), taking their guns away (no one owns guns anymore!) and giving handouts to people (cause he invented welfare)...

 

[Thumb]

I don't.

I think in the 1990's, the GOP made their "deal with the devil." The anti-government crowd, the militia crowd, the fascists, and religious fundamentalists were no longer viewed as completely insane. Newt Gingrich and his buddies may not have endorsed their views exactly, but were willing to concede they had a "point."

you can understand why they were frustrated, what with that Communist Revolutionary Bill Clinton in the White House, seizing their property via his communist federal taxes (which were apparently non existent prior to 1992?), taking their guns away (no one owns guns anymore!) and giving handouts to people (cause he invented welfare)...

And getting blowjobs...you forgot the blowjobs.

 

[tinselwolverine]

And getting blowjobs...you forgot the blowjobs.

That doesn't make somebody a communist.