The Torture Report

[Michchamp]

I anticipate reading the ISIS report on torture. That said, torture is pointless. Don't need a government report to make that point. JFK wanted to cast the CIA into a 1,000 pieces. This legacy of power abuse of the CIA goes back to Operation Paperclip.

If ISIS tortures people, we should too? I don't understand that point.

And if anything this is one reason the report was needed... At least we are sort of better than them... We would hold ourselves sort of accountable 5 years after the fact. Not holding my breath waiting for Indictments to be handed down but the report is better than nothing.

Another would be the fact that john Brennan, Michael Hayden, dick Cheney, and GWB were still going around claiming "we didn't torture," but "it was effective" and both statements were untrue. And on top of that you had the CIA's torture propaganda flick competing for Oscar's and influencing a significant portion of Americans. So, yeah, I think it was needed. It blows all that bullshit away.

 

[Spartanmack]

The restrictions on government action (in this case: don't torture) aren't limited to US citizens. "Not being tortured" isn't a "right" it's a restriction on government action.

I don't recall saying anything about torture.

 

[KAWDUP]

Jack Bauer would have made it productive. Man he knew how to torture.

 

[Michchamp]

ha.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Torture is wrong in all cases and I can't relate to someone in favor of it. The best I can hope for such a person is that they are ignorant of the fact that it does not produce valuable intelligence and that's the thing they use to justify it.

I can argue about indefinite detention and the problem with having a class of people we deal with outside of our laws or international law, but I'm not sure how valuable it is for me to weigh in if the discussion is actually about validating the use of torture. Maybe this reads like I'm up on a high horse, but I honestly can't relate and it's not because of some high-minded principle. This is as low-as-the-bar-goes-basic-founding-principle kind of stuff. I don't want to just support our side, I want to support the good guys. It's important that we are actually the good guys.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It's not a matter of feeling or opinion. Unless the terrorists are American citizens, they don't have the same rights.

But are they being handled under what rights they have? What class of people is it legal to torture under US or international law?

 

[Michchamp]

But are they being handled under what rights they have? What class of people is it legal to torture under US or international law?

He wasn't talking about torture... how did you ever get that idea? He was just responding to a post about torture in a thread about torture.

 

[Spartanmack]

But are they being handled under what rights they have? What class of people is it legal to torture under US or international law?

While I don't support torture I do doubt the claims that no actionable intelligence came from it. Maybe it was diluted by all the worthless intelligence from torture which could make it ineffective, but that alone is not why I don't support it. As for unlimited detention, access to legal representation and due process etc, etc for non-US citizens, if they have killed Americans or pose a threat to Americans, civilian or military, I'm fine with incarceration and where appropriate, capital punishment.

 

[Spartanmack]

He wasn't talking about torture... how did you ever get that idea? He was just responding to a post about torture in a thread about torture.

I didn't say anything about torture and i was responding to a post about Constitutional rights in a thread about torture.

 

[Gulo Blue]

While I don't support torture I do doubt the claims that no actionable intelligence came from it. Maybe it was diluted by all the worthless intelligence from torture which could make it ineffective, but that alone is not why I don't support it. As for unlimited detention, access to legal representation and due process etc, etc for non-US citizens, if they have killed Americans or pose a threat to Americans, civilian or military, I'm fine with incarceration and where appropriate, capital punishment.

"if they have killed Americans"

So how do you figure out if they fall into that group?

 

[Gulo Blue]

He wasn't talking about torture... how did you ever get that idea? He was just responding to a post about torture in a thread about torture.

Hey, if we could have a discussion where we agree that torture isn't justifiable and argue over the legality of how long we've held people in Guantanamo, we'd be doing better on this board than our government.

 

[Michchamp]

Hey, if we could have a discussion where we agree that torture isn't justifiable and argue over the legality of how long we've held people in Guantanamo, we'd be doing better on this board than our government.

It's funny Conservatives don't trust the government to inspect meat, build a railroad, monitor safety conditions in steel mills, run a health insurance exchange, etc., but the life and death stuff? Going to war, deciding who is a terrorist and who is not, without a trial (even in the incredibly one-sided "commissions" in Guantanamo), who to shoot Hellfire missiles at from a drone, what governments to destabilize, and how to rebuild entire nations? That's okay??? Well... they're the experts...

 

[Spartanmack]

"if they have killed Americans"

So how do you figure out if they fall into that group?

Through torture. How else would you do it? Just kidding. I don't claim to be an expert on the protocol. I'm only saying I don't have a problem with detaining terrorists that pose a threat to the US or executing those that have planned, financed, aided or carried out terrorist acts against us.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Through torture. How else would you do it? Just kidding. I don't claim to be an expert on the protocol. I'm only saying I don't have a problem with detaining terrorists that pose a threat to the US or executing those that have planned, financed, aided or carried out terrorist acts against us.

I'm ok with that too. I just think we should have a set of rules that we follow to determine who gets that treatment. We shouldn't give anyone the power to lock people up and throw away the key without some kind of fair trial. Of course there will be differences to account for national security secrets, but the political battle should be over how we deal with oversight of the secret components, not whether or not we even try to hold fair trials. We don't want other countries doing it this way. We shouldn't do it this way either.

 

[byco42]

If ISIS tortures people, we should too? I don't understand that point.

The point is that what you said below.

And if anything this is one reason the report was needed... At least we are sort of better than them... We would hold ourselves sort of accountable 5 years after the fact. Not holding my breath waiting for Indictments to be handed down but the report is better than nothing.

I think for all our flaws we have some distance to go before we approach the amorality of ISIS, but we are also a lot farther down that path than I am comfortable with.

Another would be the fact that john Brennan, Michael Hayden, dick Cheney, and GWB were still going around claiming "we didn't torture," but "it was effective" and both statements were untrue.

Even if it was effective ... what price information? Still, some Democrats were not exactly adamant in getting too interested in what was going on in the Black Rooms:

I think there are probably very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake. . . . It is easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used, but when you are in the foxhole it is a very different deal. And I respect, I think we all respect the fact that the President is in the foxhole every day.​

We all know Pelosi and Rockefeller were in on the fix from the beginning. Rockefeller claims ignorance of CIA tactics. Jay. Rockefeller. Right. WE KNEW ABOUT THE BLACK ROOMS AS THEY WERE IN OPERATION.

And that quote was Charles Schumer, by the way.

And on top of that you had the CIA's torture propaganda flick competing for Oscar's and influencing a significant portion of Americans. So, yeah, I think it was needed. It blows all that bullshit away.

"Hollywood Hypocritical" ... someone needs to make that movie

 

[Gulo Blue]

Even if it was effective ... what price information?

I'm confused. The indented line after this one...is that a quote from somewhere?

 

[Michchamp]

...

Even if it was effective ... what price information? Still, some Democrats were not exactly adamant in getting too interested in what was going on in the Black Rooms:
...

Most House and Senate Democrats were pretty spineless in terms of opposing these policies, I know, but they weren't leading the charge to implement them, and haven't continued to go on TV and make these claims. The Bush Administration did, and continues to do so.

The 500 lb. gorilla in the room is prosecution. The anti-torture treaty (or treaties) we're party two require that all signatories prosecute violations of the treaty. The closest we've come to that was the bar association going after John Yoo & Jay Bybee, authors of the torture memos. Neither were actually disciplined, although their legal work was basically given an "F" and if they didn't have so much political support, probably would've been suspended, or even disbarred.

an atty from the ACLU of NY is urging the government pardon all involved, arguing that since indictments are unlikely, the next best thing would be a pardon, to show that something illegal was actually done, and put torture on that side of the law. I think not... I say let these hacks worry about the potential for prosecution til the day they die.

 

[byco42]

I'm confused. The indented line after this one...is that a quote from somewhere?

That was Shurmer on torture.

 

[Gulo Blue]

The 500 lb. gorilla in the room is prosecution.

Prosecution will happen when politicians allow it. If bankers can buy politicians so nobody is prosecuted on Wall St., I wouldn't hold my breath regarding them prosecuting themselves.

 

[Michchamp]

Prosecution will happen when politicians allow it. If bankers can buy politicians so nobody is prosecuted on Wall St., I wouldn't hold my breath regarding them prosecuting themselves.

and good luck prosecuting the CIA...