Welcome to Detroit Sports Forum!

By joining our community, you'll be able to connect with fellow fans that live and breathe Detroit sports just like you!

Get Started
  • If you are no longer able to access your account since our recent switch from vBulletin to XenForo, you may need to reset your password via email. If you no longer have access to the email attached to your account, please fill out our contact form and we will assist you ASAP. Thanks for your continued support of DSF.

Thoughts on Israel

One thing I'd add is that there is a difference between looking for blame and looking for causes. The problem will never be solved with the focus on blame.

Agreed...but the line between Cause and Blame in that region is smaller than the distance between two subparticles in a neutron star. The Cause of the conflict is the fact the nation of Israel exists, so the Blame befalls the Jews who fought to create and still fight to maintain the existence of Israel. Nevermind they had to fight for the right because it was not otherwise going to be given.

The opposite is true today. Israel (mostly) would accept the creation of an equal Palestinian state if it meant the Palestinians would stop fighting and accept the state of Israel's right to exist. Cause/Blame is pretty thin in all of that mess, better to work on Acceptance and Tolerance than continue trying to focus on Cause and Blame, right?
 
Agreed...but the line between Cause and Blame in that region is smaller than the distance between two subparticles in a neutron star. The Cause of the conflict is the fact the nation of Israel exists, so the Blame befalls the Jews who fought to create and still fight to maintain the existence of Israel. Nevermind they had to fight for the right because it was not otherwise going to be given.

The opposite is true today. Israel (mostly) would accept the creation of an equal Palestinian state if it meant the Palestinians would stop fighting and accept the state of Israel's right to exist. Cause/Blame is pretty thin in all of that mess, better to work on Acceptance and Tolerance than continue trying to focus on Cause and Blame, right?

What? No. I'm just saying if you focus on blame rather than cause, you're starting on the wrong foot if you really want to make a difference. Take yourself away from the Israel/Palestine thing for a minute. Think about anything other problem. How about child literacy? You are obviously not to blame. But there's no reason you can't look at the causes and try to make a difference. Just the language you use reveals whether your mindset is one of discussing solutions or pushing a side.
 
You keep bringing up recognizing Israels right to exist must be the first step.

What about recognizing Palestine's right to exist?

It's so easy to put it all on the arabs right? But Israel could make giant leaps themselves by getting out of the occupied territories and sharing Jerusalem like they are supposed to. But Israel refuses to do that, yet it's the Arab/Palestinians fault because they don't recognize Israels right to exist.

Try looking at the whole problem, not just Israels problems.

It is my understanding, and perhaps I am wrong, that the first step toward Israel accepting the right of Palestine to exist was the creation of the governments in Gaza and West Bank and allowing the Palestinians the ability to elect their own government.

They were rewarded by the Palestinians electing Hamas, who refuses to acknowledge the right for Israel to exist. Israel was working toward a peaceful dual state environment when the Palestinian people slammed the door in their face.

Now, I personally believe that was more due to the Extremist Muslim factions gaining enough control to influence the voting the same way other extremist groups have been able to come into existence, a willingness to use force to gain power despite not being an actual majority.

Remove the extremists, allow the Moderates to govern, they will accept Israel (I believe, based on things I've heard Moderate Muslims say in the past and general preference for peace), Israel in turn accepts Palestine, a path toward coexistence is put forth and things can improve.

Conversely, put pressure on Israel to accept Hamas and their extremist state of Palestine as legit, opening the door for Hamas to acquire more weapons and eventually launch a full out assault against Israel. End result of that, based on recent history, is Israel defeats Palestine and we are right back where we are currently, minus the lives of the likely hundreds of thousands who die as a result of that war.

Now, Hamas COULD change their position and acknowledge Israel's right to exist. That would make for a promising move forward without more killing. Unfortunately, as the international community is more focused on criticizing Israel and blaming them for the recent deaths without holding Hamas accountable in the least, well that doesn't exactly bode well for the possibility that Hamas will change their ways anytime soon, so I do not anticipate the current Cease Fire to have much impact unfortunately.
 
Because children with poor reading skills grow up to become message board-trolling OSU fans.

That's not child literacy.

That's child illiteracy, or low literacy.

Yes, I do agree that that is a problem as it does tend to breed message board-trolling buckeye fans.
 
What? No. I'm just saying if you focus on blame rather than cause, you're starting on the wrong foot if you really want to make a difference. Take yourself away from the Israel/Palestine thing for a minute. Think about anything other problem. How about child literacy? You are obviously not to blame. But there's no reason you can't look at the causes and try to make a difference. Just the language you use reveals whether your mindset is one of discussing solutions or pushing a side.

I fail to understand how my language is opposed to discussing solutions when I'm repeatedly pressing for Acceptance and Tolerance over Discrimination and Fighting. Not saying that you are not pushing for a solution, I'm only countering your proposal with my perception of the next logical result from your suggestion. I don't disagree that Israel could at least attempt to do the right thing and try to do something different, even try your proposal, I just don't see anything they try as effectively changing Hamas' position that Israel does not have the right to exist. That is a mindset change that has to come from Hamas itself and there really isn't anything Israelis or any Jews across the planet can force. It is literally an internal change that has to happen, there is no external one that can be effective save for the ceasing of the international rejection of Israel's behavior without simultaneously applying pressure on Hamas to accept Israel. Both things COULD happen, yet only criticism of Israel is being put forth and getting all the press.

Yes, it would be more ideal for Israel to show more restraint, and I personally wish they had not gone into Gaza. Just like all of the other historical events though, we cannot change that. We can move forward and push toward Hamas accepting Israel and if there is a solid way Israel can move things forward for the creation of Palestine, I'm for that too. I'm not anti-Palestine, that much should be clear from my comments, but the only true resolution is a dual state and both Israelis (and Jews in majority) accept Palestine's right to exist, and Palestinians (and Muslims in majority) accept Israel's right to exist. Not sure how that means I am anti-Palestine, but apparently if one is not anti-Israel these days they are considered by default to be anti-Palestine.

I would like to think everyone here is in favor of the dual state, we just disagree on what is needing to happen to get to that end result. Something has to give. Not that us posters on here have to make that a reality, it only matters if the two entities actually involved make it a reality. Currently, to my knowledge, Israel is asking Hamas to accept their existence, in return for which a state for Palestinians will move forward. Hamas is only coming back to the table saying that Israel must cease to exist. That is the crux of the problem and nothing is likely going to change until that gets resolved. Somehow that is Israel's fault to many not only on this site, but around the world...which I find absolutely baffling.
 
It is my understanding, and perhaps I am wrong, that the first step toward Israel accepting the right of Palestine to exist was the creation of the governments in Gaza and West Bank and allowing the Palestinians the ability to elect their own government.

They were rewarded by the Palestinians electing Hamas, who refuses to acknowledge the right for Israel to exist. Israel was working toward a peaceful dual state environment when the Palestinian people slammed the door in their face.

Now, I personally believe that was more due to the Extremist Muslim factions gaining enough control to influence the voting the same way other extremist groups have been able to come into existence, a willingness to use force to gain power despite not being an actual majority.

Remove the extremists, allow the Moderates to govern, they will accept Israel (I believe, based on things I've heard Moderate Muslims say in the past and general preference for peace), Israel in turn accepts Palestine, a path toward coexistence is put forth and things can improve.

Conversely, put pressure on Israel to accept Hamas and their extremist state of Palestine as legit, opening the door for Hamas to acquire more weapons and eventually launch a full out assault against Israel. End result of that, based on recent history, is Israel defeats Palestine and we are right back where we are currently, minus the lives of the likely hundreds of thousands who die as a result of that war.

Now, Hamas COULD change their position and acknowledge Israel's right to exist. That would make for a promising move forward without more killing. Unfortunately, as the international community is more focused on criticizing Israel and blaming them for the recent deaths without holding Hamas accountable in the least, well that doesn't exactly bode well for the possibility that Hamas will change their ways anytime soon, so I do not anticipate the current Cease Fire to have much impact unfortunately.



Now remember you're the guy abdicating people throwing molotov cocktails at people invading/occupying peoples homes. That's pretty similar to how Palestinians/Hamas feel about Israelis occupying lands that are supposed to be Palestine. Palestine/Hamas WILL NEVER recognize Israel's rights while they are occupied.

Also the issue of Jerusalem, Israel has stated it will NEVER share it. That's a big part of the whole conflict. It's considered a sacred holy city by all 3 major religions but Israel does not care that it's not supposed to occupy East Jerusalem. Even when the international community and the UN and World Courts do not recognize Israeli sovereignty of Jerusalem, they just don't give a fuck. They keep allowing people to settle the occupied lands, so how can it be a surprise that Palestinians/Hamas want to lob mortars and rockets at them (in lieu of Molotov Cocktails).

The issue of recognizing Israel is moot really, because other Muslim nations wont recognize Israel either way, but if the conflict between Israel and Palestine is going to be settled or at least a truce called, Israel has the biggest concessions to make. And that's not just my opinion, it's pretty much the international opinion.
 
The problem will never be solved with the focus on blame.

That said...I guess we could blame...us.

Ourselves.

The world.

Not us personally, because we weren't around back then, but...it was the world and the UN who decided that locating the Jewish state where it was located was a good idea.

We were aware the neighbors didn't particularly like that idea.
 
That said...I guess we could blame...us.

Ourselves.

The world.

Not us personally, because we weren't around back then, but...it was the world and the UN who decided that locating the Jewish state where it was located was a good idea.

We were aware the neighbors didn't particularly like that idea.



No, remember it was God. Israel is where it is because of a biblical promise God made to Jacob.
 
That's not child literacy.

That's child illiteracy, or low literacy.

Yes, I do agree that that is a problem as it does tend to breed message board-trolling buckeye fans.

Great, leave it to Tinsel to interject yet another disagreement into the situation. ;P

Thankfully Gulo didn't escalate and go all nuke-u-ler.
 
Great, leave it to Tinsel to interject yet another disagreement into the situation. ;P

Thankfully Gulo didn't escalate and go all nuke-u-ler.

What's there to disagree with?

That's what happened.

I'm not saying it should have, I'm not saying it shouldn't have.

But the world knew at the time that there were going to be tensions and hostilities - or should have known, anyway.
 
What's there to disagree with?

That's what happened.

I'm not saying it should have, I'm not saying it shouldn't have.

But the world knew at the time that there were going to be tensions and hostilities - or should have known, anyway.

LOL..i was referring to the child literacy, just posted late.
 
I don't disagree that the world F'd up by not simultaneously creating a state for Palestinians when they created Israel. Not that it would have resolved all hostilities, but that should have been handled better at that time.
 
And Muslims exist thanks to Abraham cheating on his wife.



No.

The division between Jews and Arabs supposedly exists because of Sara, or Sarah, however it's spelled and her casting Ishmael out.

Muslims exists because God told Muhammad some thing. Allegedly.
 
It is literally an internal change that has to happen, there is no external one that can be effective save for the ceasing of the international rejection of Israel's behavior without simultaneously applying pressure on Hamas to accept Israel. Both things COULD happen, yet only criticism of Israel is being put forth and getting all the press.

Yes, it would be more ideal for Israel to show more restraint, and I personally wish they had not gone into Gaza.

So...you think Israel should not have gone, but they should not be criticized for going?

...and the difference between cause and blame is minuscule?
 
No, he and I have agreed that it's "illiteracy" or "poor literacy" is the problem that leads to message board trolling buckeyes.

Yeah. There's no disagreement. I just got caught in a classic blunder. Happens all the time. "Walk for Hunger", wear a pink ribbon for breast cancer,...that sort of thing.
 
Back
Top