Thoughts on Israel

[Gulo Blue]

so... who cares? Israel is better than Hamas. Those Palestinians have no complaints. They should all consider themselves lucky to even be alive.

These are not the droids you are looking for...

move on.

I've always seen you as more of an Empire guy.

 

[Spartanmack]

so... who cares? Israel is better than Hamas. Those Palestinians have no complaints. They should all consider themselves lucky to even be alive.

These are not the droids you are looking for...

move on.

More false framing and straw man arguments. So weak, it's not even worth any more of a response. I've said it before and I'll say it again - you are one pathetic loser.

 

[Michchamp]

More false framing and straw man arguments. So weak, it's not even worth any more of a response. I've said it before and I'll say it again - you are one pathetic loser.

it's definitely not a straw argument. you've repeatedly used that very point to dodge the question about whether you support what Israel is doing.
a straw argument is not just "any argument I don't like"

And just so we don't get bogged down by one of your stupid semantics arguments, feel free to replace the word "support" with "agree with," "endorse" or "approve of."

 

[Spartanmack]

it's definitely not a straw argument. you've repeatedly used that very point to dodge the question about whether you support what Israel is doing.
a straw argument is not just "any argument I don't like"

And just so we don't get bogged down by one of your stupid semantics arguments, feel free to replace the word "support" with "agree with," "endorse" or "approve of."

It is a straw man. You've repeatedly accused me of supporting everything Israel does based on my belief that they are morally superior to terrorists that want to kill Jews because they are Jews. I've also said repeatedly that the fact that Israel robo-calls and drops letter bombs in Gaza to warn the people that they are going to bomb Hamas fighters and munitions in certain neighborhoods while Hamas lies to the Palestinians so they'll stay put and die in those bombings so they can get an edge in the PR war is further proof of Israel's moral superiority. As is the fact that Israel offers blood and other medical as well as humanitarian aid to those areas while Hamas refuses to accept it is also evidence of Israel's moral superiority. I made a statement about Israel's moral superiority. You want to reframe the argument to one you think you can win and it's a strawman. These are just more of your typical libtard childish arguing tactics to preen your moral vanity. It's a waste of time. Israel has the moral high ground here and you know it but you're an anti-semitic biggot and you suck.

 

[Michchamp]

... It's a waste of time. Israel has the moral high ground here and you know it but you're an anti-semitic biggot and you suck.

LOL, nice.

 

[Spartanmack]

LOL, nice.

You like that? I totally michchumped you there.

 

[Michchamp]

interesting spin detailed here:

While the world was still trying to come to terms with the mass deaths in Shejaiya, Benjamin Netanyahu went on CNN to state that Hamas uses the ?telegenically dead? to further ?their cause.? He added that for Hamas: ?The more the dead, the better.? Even while Netanyahu followed the propaganda script, which is to first show sympathy and express remorse, by reducing dead Palestinians to a photo-op he showed how his own mind works.
​

so... it's everytime an Israeli bomb, bullet, or missile kills a Palestinian civilian, including women and children... it's Hamas fault... because they're "human shields"... in their own homes... Okay...

There is a standard script for how to deal with Palestinian casualties. After Israel killed four boys on the Gaza beach on July 16, the U.S. establishment media fell in line behind Israel?s PR framework: acknowledge the tragedy but blame Hamas.

This is exactly what Israeli spokesperson Mark Regev said on Channel 4 News when grilled by the anchor Jon Snow. It is also how the U.S. State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki responded, using the same word-for-word talking points.
This framework, developed in 2009, can be found in The Israel Project?s 2009 Global Language Dictionary. The Orwellian manual provides a detailed outline on how to ?communicate effectively in support of Israel.?
​

 

[bamf_16]

In some ways, Israel is what the US used to be, before we went all Rocky III.

For many social, political, and economic reasons, pre 1950 US stomached more in warfare. The people had little problem demonizing an enemy in the press and in posters displayed all across the country. The people had little problem with blowing up European churches that were used to store anything construed as a threat to the American soldier, and had little problem killing 25,000 in Dresden with "conventional" bombs nor much problem nuking a quarter million Japanese to again, right or wrong, do whatever possible to win and protect American lives.

Since then, the stomach of the American citizen has evolved; we don't celebrate that anymore. It's why we've engaged in conflict without absolute victory, and it's why our people look at Israeli actions with such disdain. While I don't condone it, I absolutely understand the thinking. It's also one explanation for why as Israel's tactics and attitudes don't change along with our's, their support within the US continues to decline.

That said, no side is perfect and on both sides, the innocents have suffered far too much. But in my opinion, it is ignorance of the entirety of the conflict and/or intellectual dishonesty that causes someone to try to put Hamas on a higher moral plane than Israel.

 

[Michchamp]

more from that same article:

Another journalist, CNN?s Diana Magnay, hearing the cheers of Israelis as Palestinians were being bombarded, and somewhat horrified by it, said spontaneously on the air??it is really astonishing, macabre and an awful thing really to watch this display of fire in the air.? As a trained journalist, she seems to have self-censored and substituted the words ?fire in the air? for what she actually thought about the people cheering on: ?scum,? the word she would later tweet.


Magnay wrote: ?Israelis on hill above Sderot cheer as bombs land on #gaza; threaten to ?destroy our car if I say one word wrong.? Scum.?
​

it is strange that they didn't institute a complete press blockade like the last time they invaded Gaza and killed hundred/thousands of civilians (2008). I bet they won't make this mistake again in 2016 or whenever the next one is.

 

[Michchamp]

In some ways, Israel is what the US used to be, before we went all Rocky III.

For many social, political, and economic reasons, pre 1950 US stomached more in warfare. The people had little problem demonizing an enemy in the press and in posters displayed all across the country. The people had little problem with blowing up European churches that were used to store anything construed as a threat to the American soldier, and had little problem killing 25,000 in Dresden with "conventional" bombs nor much problem nuking a quarter million Japanese to again, right or wrong, do whatever possible to win and protect American lives.

Since then, the stomach of the American citizen has evolved; we don't celebrate that anymore. It's why we've engaged in conflict without absolute victory, and it's why our people look at Israeli actions with such disdain. While I don't condone it, I absolutely understand the thinking. It's also one explanation for why as Israel's tactics and attitudes don't change along with our's, their support within the US continues to decline.

That said, no side is perfect and on both sides, the innocents have suffered far too much. But in my opinion, it is ignorance of the entirety of the conflict and/or intellectual dishonesty that causes someone to try to put Hamas on a higher moral plane than Israel.

I don't really see the parallel between WWII and what Israel is doing here.

I also don't think the fire-bombing of Dresden or the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki reflects the American public's stomach for war. It's just that in those days Americans were dumber and more racist (they became the Fox News audience of today), and we were actually at war with Germany and Japan.

the horrors of firebombing and nuking were largely kept from the American public at the time, and it wasn't like anyone was really going to complain about actions which the US government could plausibly argue were ending the war sooner.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Since then, the stomach of the American citizen has evolved; we don't celebrate that anymore..

Our stomachs evolved, but so did the power of the military-industrial complex. Our stomachs don't have as much say as they used to. Probably not entirely different there. When we send money to Israel so they can send it back to our weapons makers (or however that exchange is arranged) I don't think it has much to do with the political leanings of the average American or Israeli.

 

[TheVictors]

well until Vietnam, nobody 'back home' had ever seen what war was like. the first video accounts of war were delivered during the evening news to people for the first time and for the first time, there was a true anti-war movement.

now, it's almost (as the reporter used) macabre how people want to watch war ...want to see bombs blow up 'targets' and to see the neon green gunfire at night.

add in the complete desensitization towards these images and worse, what's happening, and you have the evolution of the now numb, public stomach.

 

[jwlcosu]

Thoughtful article by Ron Fournier. Israel may be doomed by demographic/generational attitude creep. He's probably right. Lots of things bending in that direction as society "advances."

http://www.nationaljournal.com/whit...etanyahu-should-be-very-very-worried-20140728

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

The most amazing part of all of this is that people still watch the news. With the sound on even!

Red or Blue - you're being sold a lie. Jewish or Islamic you are being sold a lie. American or Russian - well you get the point.

Few are those who give a fuck about you more than they can drain your blood or empty your pockets. Right now somebody has an agenda for you, if they can get you to follow it they will be (more) rich and (more) powerful . As long as we bray at each other they can do as they wish. We are their chattel.

Until humans can accept that we're all the same asshole we'll continue arguing over the nuances that makes everyone their own unique asshole (skin color, religion and etc.,). Something tells me all creatures on this planet (and others) do the same stupid shit. No different than viruses or bacteria. I do all I can to not throw logs on that fire, I fail.

 

[Michchamp]

so... the slaughter of Palestinians continues unabated.

 

[Michchamp]

surprisingly... the Senate blocked an aid package to Israel. this is just a week or so after that meaningless 100-0 vote in support of Israel's actions. link.

"A last-ditch effort to deliver aid to Israel during its war with Hamas died on the Senate floor, as Republicans blocked the proposal over concerns that it would increase the debt.

After Senate Republicans blocked Democrats? $2.7 billion border aid package, which also included $225 million for Israel?s Iron Dome missile defense system and $615 million to fight Western wildfires, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid tried to split off the Israel and wildfire money as a standalone bill, hoping to put aside the dispute over border funding and appeal to Republicans? deep ties to Israel.
​

weird. I wonder if the politics are just an excuse to block funding, or if the senate really is that dysfunctional? I can't imagine it's the latter, because I've never heard of a GOP senator blocking money for bombs before.

The funds were purportedly for Israel's "Iron Dome" rocket shield, which uses $20,000 laser-guided rockets provided by U.S. taxpayers to shoot down cheap Palestinian unguided rockets that don't really do much.

this may have helped push the two sides to announce a truce, which fell apart like 5 seconds later. Also, this is odd:

"After the initial publication of this article, the military?s censor informed The New York Times that further information related to the apparently abducted soldier would have to be submitted for prior review. Journalists for foreign news organizations must agree in writing to the military censorship system to work in Israel. This was the first censorship notification The Times had received in more than two years."
​

I guess things are not going as planned.

 

[Michchamp]

this is misleading:

3,754

targets in Gaza
struck by Israel

1,450+

Palestinian deaths

2,848

rockets launched at Israel from Gaza

66

Israeli deaths
​

what they don't say is that something like ~95% of the Israeli deaths were IDF soldiers fighting the Gaza strip, and the Palestinian deaths are ~80% civilian.

 

[Gulo Blue]

We need Palestinian Gandhi.

 

[Gulo Blue]

surprisingly... the Senate blocked an aid package to Israel. this is just a week or so after that meaningless 100-0 vote in support of Israel's actions. link.

"A last-ditch effort to deliver aid to Israel during its war with Hamas died on the Senate floor, as Republicans blocked the proposal over concerns that it would increase the debt.

After Senate Republicans blocked Democrats? $2.7 billion border aid package, which also included $225 million for Israel?s Iron Dome missile defense system and $615 million to fight Western wildfires, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid tried to split off the Israel and wildfire money as a standalone bill, hoping to put aside the dispute over border funding and appeal to Republicans? deep ties to Israel.
​

weird. I wonder if the politics are just an excuse to block funding, or if the senate really is that dysfunctional?

Probably a dispute between American arms manufacturers and Israeli arms manufacturers at the root of it.

 

[zyxt9]

Who was the guy not long ago talking about the Ukraine how he should Molotov them or pick them off with a sniper rifle for unjustly settling his land? I wonder if he thinks Israel should get a pass for doing the same thing?

EDIT: poster in question was zyxt who I believe converted to Judaism, so I'm guessing Israel get's a pass.

Yes, that was me and yes, I am a convert to Judaism pretty much for personal rather than religious reasons.

That said, I do have mixed emotions about the entire debate. I am all for a dual state, preferably having Jerusalem changed to a non-affiliated status where no nation controls it, but is controlled by a non-interested outside government (say Hindu-influenced just for arguments sake). As long as that city is governed by Jews, Muslims, or Christians, there will be war. Israel should move its government capital to Tel Aviv, IMO.

All that said, the challenge would exist in convincing extremists in all 3 religions that this is a reasonable alternative as there is a growing faction of extrmist Jews who prefer keeping Muslims firmly separated and I do not believe that is a legit solution. Conversely, there are extremist Muslims who want all Jews removed from Earth.

Until the Moderates are able to control their respective religions there will not be peace. Due to that overwhelming fact and historical precedent of Muslim nations invading Israel, it is difficult at this time to believe the Jews shoukd relinquish their defensive positions. Hamas is not some innocent group that should be viewed with only pity.

If the Palestinians were to elect Moderates and demonstrate a Ghandi-esque approach, then it would be more appropriate to defend them; however, that has yet to happen and does not appear to be close to happening anytime soon. I feel for the moderate Muslims who are unjustly being killed by both Muslims and Jews, I have zero sympathy for any Jew or Muslim extremist who dies perpetuating the wars. Both religions are supposed to be about peace and forgiving transgressions, but extremists are incapable of both so their deaths are not worth my tears nor anquish.