Thoughts on Israel

[zyxt9]

We need Palestinian Gandhi.

Absolutely, and until that happens Israel will be able to proclaim they are the ones fighting the good and moral fight.

Hopefully if the Palestinian Ghandi does appear he is not assassinated by extremists from either side and Israel has a leader capable of recognizing the new leadership and makes immediate efforts toward creating the dual state while removing all restrictions and sanctions over the Palestinians.

 

[tinselwolverine]

All that said, the challenge would exist in convincing extremists in all 3 religions that this is a reasonable alternative as there is a growing faction of extrmist Jews who prefer keeping Muslims firmly separated and I do not believe that is a legit solution. Conversely, there are extremist Muslims who want all Jews removed from Earth.

Extremists Christians in the region?

You mean the ones who bomb abortion clinics over there when there's nothing else very exciting going on?

 

[Monster]

this is misleading:

3,754

targets in Gaza
struck by Israel

1,450+

Palestinian deaths

2,848

rockets launched at Israel from Gaza

66

Israeli deaths
​

what they don't say is that something like ~95% of the Israeli deaths were IDF soldiers fighting the Gaza strip, and the Palestinian deaths are ~80% civilian.

I'm shocked that we're still siding with Israel. Hamas may be a terrorist group and I know that putting their weapons in and firing their rockets from schools and hospitals is a despicable thing, but damn...why the fuck is Israel still firing missiles at those places when they know the success rate is so low? What's the ratio of civilian to terrorist deaths? 5 to 1?

At this point, if they really want to get rid of Hamas, they need to invade on the ground. At least that way they can take action against the people who need an ass kicking. They could aid in evacuating actual Palestinian civilians and prove that they are going after terrorists and not civilians. Because right now it really looks like they don't give a shit who they kill.

And I don't buy the "Hamas missiles are misfiring and hitting strategic targets for us" argument. No water, no food for Palestine ATM. This is a real humanitarian crisis and everyone is looking the other way. Shame on Hamas and shame on Israel.

Also...getting sick of seeing Net-In-Yahoo's stooge spokesperson going on TV and saying the words, "Let's be clear" and following it up with a bunch of scripted BS.

 

[Monster]

Also, did anyone else find it strange that Michael Bloomberg freaked the fuck out when the FAA banned flights to Israel and flew there to protest? Bloomberg? It's like the ban was a personal attack on himself.

 

[Thumb]

I'm shocked that we're still siding with Israel.

Are you really?

We will always side with Israel, no matter what they do. They have a huge lobby with tons of money and political pressure. It would be career suicide for any major politician to even hint that we should stop sending them aid, either militarily in the form of arms or in money.

 

[jwlcosu]

For those of you who question why the US sides with Israel, the Preamble to the Hamas charter includes this morsel:

Preamble

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

I could throw a ton of similar stuff at those of you who draw moral equivalency, or worse, among Israel and it's enemies but I doubt it would do much good. You are not clear thinkers.

 

[Monster]

For those of you who question why the US sides with Israel, the Preamble to the Hamas charter includes this morsel:

Preamble

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

I could throw a ton of similar stuff at those of you who draw moral equivalency, or worse, among Israel and it's enemies but I doubt it would do much good. You are not clear thinkers.

Who is pro-Hamas here? I think most of us are pissed at how lazy Israel is in this fight. Tossing missiles into a densely populated area is stupid tactics, especially when most of the dead are civilian. Most of Gaza now has no clean water, no electricity, and have lost friends, family, or neighbors to Israel's moronic way of fighting.

Hamas needs to be destroyed, changed, or forced out of power. Doesn't mean I have to agree with Israel.

On the other hand, I believe I understand Hamas' hatred. If Russia invaded the US and pushed us all into Vermont and then restricted our access to other parts of the country for a few decades, I think our charter would be very similar.

I'm pro palestine and Israel citizens. The governments can go fuck themselves.

 

[jwlcosu]

I'm pro palestine and Israel citizens. The governments can go fuck themselves.

That's nice. It's also a meaningless, "citizen of the world" type of platitude that is grounded in extra-reality.

 

[zyxt9]

Extremists Christians in the region?

You mean the ones who bomb abortion clinics over there when there's nothing else very exciting going on?

No, worse...the kind who if they were in power would bring back Inquisition era discrimination. Plenty of ultra-orthodox Christians in the region, many of whom have been repressed and therefore would love to have power over the Jews and Muslims there so they could exert their preferences and ideology.

 

[zyxt9]

I'm shocked that we're still siding with Israel. Hamas may be a terrorist group and I know that putting their weapons in and firing their rockets from schools and hospitals is a despicable thing, but damn...why the fuck is Israel still firing missiles at those places when they know the success rate is so low? What's the ratio of civilian to terrorist deaths? 5 to 1?

At this point, if they really want to get rid of Hamas, they need to invade on the ground. At least that way they can take action against the people who need an ass kicking. They could aid in evacuating actual Palestinian civilians and prove that they are going after terrorists and not civilians. Because right now it really looks like they don't give a shit who they kill.

And I don't buy the "Hamas missiles are misfiring and hitting strategic targets for us" argument. No water, no food for Palestine ATM. This is a real humanitarian crisis and everyone is looking the other way. Shame on Hamas and shame on Israel.

Also...getting sick of seeing Net-In-Yahoo's stooge spokesperson going on TV and saying the words, "Let's be clear" and following it up with a bunch of scripted BS.

Monster, please keep in mind that the IDF are in uniforms while Hamas wears plain clothes and tries to blend in while simultaneously using their fellow Muslims as human shields then decry their deaths as being solely Israel's fault. Not holding Israel blameless with that, but Hamas must be held accountable as well.

Furthermore, what you proose with ground assault woukd be considered an invasion by Israel and make them look worse, nit better.

Unfortunately there is no perfect solution where everyone wins. And while thise stats look to make Israel look bad, one must consider the historical kill ratio has long been at a similar rate even when Israel fought uniformed nations. Part of that is due to there being over a billion Muslims and far fewer Jews, like around a 100:1 ratio at best for the Jews. So killing 1 Jew is proportionally the same as killing 100 Muslims, but let's just be michchamps and scream about hiw Israel is committing genocide despite the extremist Muslims being the only group to have declared genocide as an actual objective/mission/goal and Israel strives to target actual militaristic targets and is actually remorseful when innocent people are killed in collateral damage whereas the extremist Muslims dance in celebration when innocent people are killed, even the Muslims who lived in NYC who celebrated on 9/11 with joyous gatherings...cuz the twin towers destruction were such an important victory for them somehow.

No, not saying all Muslims were celebrating...but thise few who did leave a bad taste and highlights hiw difficult it is to determine "friend" from "foe" in a place like Gaza, no?

 

[jwlcosu]

No, worse...the kind who if they were in power would bring back Inquisition era discrimination. Plenty of ultra-orthodox Christians in the region, many of whom have been repressed and therefore would love to have power over the Jews and Muslims there so they could exert their preferences and ideology.

I get that you might be shooting from the hip but if not, I'd be interested in taking a look at any references you might be able to provide. The number of Christians in the Middle East is in pretty rapid decline, I think, let alone the "ultra-orthodox" variety, and I seriously doubt those that remain have a goal of enslaving others. More likely, they're busy trying to survive.

 

[tinselwolverine]

No, worse...the kind who if they were in power would bring back Inquisition era discrimination. Plenty of ultra-orthodox Christians in the region, many of whom have been repressed and therefore would love to have power over the Jews and Muslims there so they could exert their preferences and ideology.

Oh, right...a return to the Crusades...(I think you're getting your terminology mixed up when you refer to the Inquisition, which really had nothing to do with Christian/Catholic military incursions into the middle east...).

Somebody posted something about Micelle Bachmann advocating a re-invigoration of the Crusades...or maybe she was just saying something about nasty about faggots, I forget...

Is Papa Frank advocating a re-inauguration of the Crusades?

'Cause (except for Michelle Bachmann - and I'm also not 100% sure she wasn't just condemning faggots) this is coming to me all out of the blue.

 

[Thumb]

For those of you who question why the US sides with Israel, the Preamble to the Hamas charter includes this morsel:

Preamble

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

I could throw a ton of similar stuff at those of you who draw moral equivalency, or worse, among Israel and it's enemies but I doubt it would do much good. You are not clear thinkers.

You really think that has anything to do with it? :ashamed:

If that was the reason why didn't we get more involved in the ethnic cleansing that happened in Africa? After all it's the same thing, you had one group trying to obliterate another.

For such a clear thinker, you sure are a simpleton.

 

[Monster]

That's nice. It's also a meaningless, "citizen of the world" type of platitude that is grounded in extra-reality.

It's not meaningless. Not at all. Israel has proven themselves to be self serving animals and Hamas to be cowards. I have no problems with Israel in most things, but this conflict has been handled wrong from day one.

 

[zyxt9]

I get that you might be shooting from the hip but if not, I'd be interested in taking a look at any references you might be able to provide. The number of Christians in the Middle East is in pretty rapid decline, I think, let alone the "ultra-orthodox" variety, and I seriously doubt those that remain have a goal of enslaving others. More likely, they're busy trying to survive.

Currently they are, yes. My post was about a theoretical IF, that SOME of the ultra-orthodox Christian groups currently in the Middle East were to come to power that they would have as an objective the extermination of Jews as they still carry the beliefs of generations ago.

Look no further than the KKK in the US for proof that there are ultra-orthodox Christians who desire that.

There are also ultra-orthodox Jews who are ok with the genocide of Muslims, Christians, and others.

Thankfully these groups are in the vast minority, with the exception of the Muslims who seem to be a large enough group that they are able to actually pursue their mission of killing all Jews, Christians, and other infidels. That is the entire crux of the problem in the Middle East, that the ultra-orthodox Muslims have too much power. If they were not so bent on killing all of the Jews, then the current situation would not exist. The Jews have the right to defend themselves, though it would be preferable if they could establish a relationship with Moderate Muslims and demonstrate a peaceful alternative that would potentially result in Muslims going for an alternative to killing and dying, but the other issue is convincing the radicals that such peaceful means outweigh the promise of all those virgins in the afterlife, right? Kind of tough to compete against that when dealing with boys who can't have sex but their testosterone is through the roof. Everyone gets that they are not thinking with the head that holds their eyes and ears, because talking to them and showing them alternatives to dying for all those virgins doesn't get through to them.

 

[zyxt9]

It's not meaningless. Not at all. Israel has proven themselves to be self serving animals and Hamas to be cowards. I have no problems with Israel in most things, but this conflict has been handled wrong from day one.

Absolutely correct. If Abraham had just kept his dick in his pants and not slept around on his wife, none of this would be an issue today.

Or were you referring to more recent "Day 1"s? The British handling of the area after removing the Nazis? The Muslim nations repeatedly attacking Israel which Israel used as a reason to take more land for their protection? Their unwillingness to return the land to those nations? Israel trying to use force to control the Palestinians, which we all pretty much agree will never accomplish anything? The Palestinians electing Hamas as their "governmental" leaders? Israel refusing to negotiate with known terrorist organizations even if they were elected by their country?

So many Day 1s that have been handled wrong. The region needs a Day 1 that finally gets handled correctly, but it is probably too late unfortunately.

 

[Monster]

Absolutely correct. If Abraham had just kept his dick in his pants and not slept around on his wife, none of this would be an issue today.

Or were you referring to more recent "Day 1"s? The British handling of the area after removing the Nazis? The Muslim nations repeatedly attacking Israel which Israel used as a reason to take more land for their protection? Their unwillingness to return the land to those nations? Israel trying to use force to control the Palestinians, which we all pretty much agree will never accomplish anything? The Palestinians electing Hamas as their "governmental" leaders? Israel refusing to negotiate with known terrorist organizations even if they were elected by their country?

So many Day 1s that have been handled wrong. The region needs a Day 1 that finally gets handled correctly, but it is probably too late unfortunately.

smart ass. :clap:

I think you know what I mean.

 

[Spartanmack]

...but the other issue is convincing the radicals that such peaceful means outweigh the promise of all those virgins in the afterlife, right? Kind of tough to compete against that when dealing with boys who can't have sex but their testosterone is through the roof. Everyone gets that they are not thinking with the head that holds their eyes and ears, because talking to them and showing them alternatives to dying for all those virgins doesn't get through to them.

Take them to a Star Trek convention and show them that most of those 72 virgins are going to be a bunch of zit-faced teenage boys that play dress up, Dungeons and Dragons and Magic the Gathering on Friday nights. That might change their minds...

 

[Spartanmack]

I'm shocked that we're still siding with Israel. Hamas may be a terrorist group and I know that putting their weapons in and firing their rockets from schools and hospitals is a despicable thing, but damn...why the fuck is Israel still firing missiles at those places when they know the success rate is so low? What's the ratio of civilian to terrorist deaths? 5 to 1?

At this point, if they really want to get rid of Hamas, they need to invade on the ground. At least that way they can take action against the people who need an ass kicking. They could aid in evacuating actual Palestinian civilians and prove that they are going after terrorists and not civilians. Because right now it really looks like they don't give a shit who they kill.

And I don't buy the "Hamas missiles are misfiring and hitting strategic targets for us" argument. No water, no food for Palestine ATM. This is a real humanitarian crisis and everyone is looking the other way. Shame on Hamas and shame on Israel.

Also...getting sick of seeing Net-In-Yahoo's stooge spokesperson going on TV and saying the words, "Let's be clear" and following it up with a bunch of scripted BS.

The success rate is low but would you take the chance that they will always miss, knowing their stated goals and what they're actually attempting to do, albeit unsuccessfully so far. They'll eventually either figure it out or just get "lucky" and kill a bunch of innocent people. What then?

 

[Monster]

The success rate is low but would you take the chance that they will always miss, knowing their stated goals and what they're actually attempting to do, albeit unsuccessfully so far. They'll eventually either figure it out or just get "lucky" and kill a bunch of innocent people. What then?

So your response would be to knock out power and water supply to Palestine in a battle that is likely to last weeks or months? All while attacking buildings that you know have civilians in? Fuck Hamas for putting the people in that position, but it is disgusting that Israel KNOWS they're going to kill so many innocent people in order to take a few weapons and terrorists.