Tigers coaching shakeup - McClendon now bench coach

[kalinecountry]

https://totallytigers.wordpress.com/2019/12/11/tantalizing-and-terrifying-tidbits/
TANTALIZING AND TERRIFYING TIDBITS.
Totally Tigers

 

[kalinecountry]

https://totallytigers.wordpress.com/2020/01/15/the-ellis-island-of-mlb/
THE ELLIS ISLAND OF MLB.
Totally Tigers

Jim Leyland, Al Avila, Rich Dubee, Doug Mientkiewicz and Mike Rabelo all have a history there and their lives have all intersected. All 5 (and there are more but these are primary guys) have ended up in Detroit.

Along the way, they brought other friends with them, primarily from Pittsburgh. Leyland, Avila, Littlefield, Dave Clark, Lloyd McClendon and Jim Prince also came from there and most of them worked together at one point in time.

The interesting issue is that there really is no mix from other teams in the hierarchy of the Tigers. Almost everyone in a decision-making position has a background that involves the Pirates and/or Marlins. That?s what makes this of such concern.

Jim Leyland boasts the most connections. He worked with both Al Avila and Dave Littlefield who have also worked for Pittsburgh. Avila was his Assistant GM with Miami. Leyland, because it is quite the interesting detail, is the manager who quit not 1, but 3 teams (Pirates, Rockies and Marlins) before his contracts were up, before coming to the Tigers.

 

[Tigrrman]

I have said this before and will say again ..rampant negativity does not help anybody.
All it does is expose how miserable some people have allowed themselves to become ..all over nothing more than a game that's supposed to be fun.

Everybody knew that Mike Ilitch way way overspent to bring and/or retain several of baseball's biggest stars to the team. Unfortunately, for those who fell in love with that type if irresponsibility, ..Mike's son Chris appears determined to not make that same mistake.

Like it or not ..that is the reality of what Chris Ilitch inherited ..and also the reality regarding how he intends to fix it. The Tigers will draft their way to a highly successful base ..and then add just enough supporting cast via trades and FA to keep them successful for the long haul. And that is exactly what Chris and Al have been saying right from the very start ..and continue to say.

These days ..I'd guess that many of the younger Tiger fans do not have the same 'want-it-now-or-they-all-suck' mentality that some of their older baseball counterparts too often display. These young fans do not sit back and dwell upon negativity. They would rather walk away from the Tigers than sit back and allow bitter negativity to consume them. Indeed, young fans can and do find other things to do ..including still going to the ballpark to watch the Tigers now and then just for the fun of it.

Well old folks, just be patient. The Tigers could be very very good by 2022 ..and could even be in the World Series by 2023. They did it before from 2003-2006!

 

[Rebbiv]

I have said this before and will say again ..rampant negativity does not help anybody.
All it does is expose how miserable some people have allowed themselves to become ..all over nothing more than a game that's supposed to be fun.

Everybody knew that Mike Ilitch way way overspent to bring and/or retain several of baseball's biggest stars to the team. Unfortunately, for those who fell in love with that type if irresponsibility, ..Mike's son Chris appears determined to not make that same mistake.

Like it or not ..that is the reality of what Chris Ilitch inherited ..and also the reality regarding how he intends to fix it. The Tigers will draft their way to a highly successful base ..and then add just enough supporting cast via trades and FA to keep them successful for the long haul. And that is exactly what Chris and Al have been saying right from the very start ..and continue to say.

These days ..I'd guess that many of the younger Tiger fans do not have the same 'want-it-now-or-they-all-suck' mentality that some of their older baseball counterparts too often display. These young fans do not sit back and dwell upon negativity. They would rather walk away from the Tigers than sit back and allow bitter negativity to consume them. Indeed, young fans can and do find other things to do ..including still going to the ballpark to watch the Tigers now and then just for the fun of it.

Well old folks, just be patient. The Tigers could be very very good by 2022 ..and could even be in the World Series by 2023. They did it before from 2003-2006!

It really is being objective versus subjective. It you want to call being objective as negative, so be it. But I can back it up with facts, not conjecture. Citing a turn from 2003 to 2006, is missing key elements. For one, the makeup of the teams are different. In 2006, on 8 players were even in the organization in 2003, and only 4 got playing time in 2003. The rest of the roster game from free agents and shrewd trades. You must have a better crystal ball then everyone else.

 

[Tigrrman]

It really is being objective versus subjective. It you want to call being objective as negative, so be it. But I can back it up with facts, not conjecture. Citing a turn from 2003 to 2006, is missing key elements. For one, the makeup of the teams are different. In 2006, on 8 players were even in the organization in 2003, and only 4 got playing time in 2003. The rest of the roster game from free agents and shrewd trades. You must have a better crystal ball then everyone else.

It really is being objective versus subjective. It you want to call being objective as negative, so be it. But I can back it up with facts, not conjecture. Citing a turn from 2003 to 2006, is missing key elements. For one, the makeup of the teams are different. In 2006, on 8 players were even in the organization in 2003, and only 4 got playing time in 2003. The rest of the roster game from free agents and shrewd trades. You must have a better crystal ball then everyone else.

Whether Objective and/or Subjective, either are fine with me. One would be primarily based upon the facts ..while the other would be based upon opinions and/or emotions. No need to explain which of the two would include overly dramatic animosity and/or name-calling.

Now, I am not referring to any animosity or name-calling toward me here ..but rather, those types of behavioral mannerisms so frequently directed towards the Detroit Tiger executives who ultimately make the decisions regarding the draft picks, trades, and/or signing of FA's. Without any doubt, such behaviors are rampant enough on most Tiger blogs/forums that I need not detail beyond that.

In my own honest opinion based upon research ..the 2021 and/or 2022 Tiger teams will most likely have very few current Detroit Tigers on them. I honestly do not expect more than 4 players currently on the active roster to still be here in 2022, and maybe not even that many.
Miggy is the only current Tiger player who is signed through 2023. Maybe Jimenez may still be here ..and maybe 1 or 2 of Boyd, Norris, or Fulmer.

The way I see it, ..the bigger difference between 2003/2006 vs 2019/2022 will be that the Tigers in 2022 should have quite a few more of their own prospects on the 2022 team than on the 2006 team.

I read somewhere that the annual attrition rate per MLB team from one year to the next year is at least 37%.
Thus, over the course of 4 seasons, it is logical to conclude that the vast majority most of the players from season 1 will not still be part of the same team in season 4.

 

[tigermud]

Front office tiger PR guy I?m not really a big legendary Lloyd fan why do you think the tigers keep him around after years of failing as a HC

 

[Rebbiv]

Whether Objective and/or Subjective, either are fine with me. One would be primarily based upon the facts ..while the other would be based upon opinions and/or emotions. No need to explain which of the two would include overly dramatic animosity and/or name-calling.

Now, I am not referring to any animosity or name-calling toward me here ..but rather, those types of behavioral mannerisms so frequently directed towards the Detroit Tiger executives who ultimately make the decisions regarding the draft picks, trades, and/or signing of FA's. Without any doubt, such behaviors are rampant enough on most Tiger blogs/forums that I need not detail beyond that.

In my own honest opinion based upon research ..the 2021 and/or 2022 Tiger teams will most likely have very few current Detroit Tigers on them. I honestly do not expect more than 4 players currently on the active roster to still be here in 2022, and maybe not even that many.
Miggy is the only current Tiger player who is signed through 2023. Maybe Jimenez may still be here ..and maybe 1 or 2 of Boyd, Norris, or Fulmer.

The way I see it, ..the bigger difference between 2003/2006 vs 2019/2022 will be that the Tigers in 2022 should have quite a few more of their own prospects on the 2022 team than on the 2006 team.

I read somewhere that the annual attrition rate per MLB team from one year to the next year is at least 37%.
Thus, over the course of 4 seasons, it is logical to conclude that the vast majority most of the players from season 1 will not still be part of the same team in season 4.

You must have missed the part of being in the organization. And then you go and contradict yourself. 2006 had 8 players from 2003. Quite a bit more is what, 12-16? Then you go on about 37% each season. And none of that even pretends to suggest they would be any good. Turning your roster over is subjective. LOL.



22 of the top 25 Tigers in 2019 have been in the organization since 2017. I don't see that number lowering anytime soon. They will sign the occasional dud Free Agent and trade insignificant players for more insignificant.


There are 30 MLB teams. If what you project is truth, we would have a different World Series champ every year and every organization would take turns. HOU, BOS, NYY. LAD, etc, etc are not turning over their rosters to the extent you suggest.



Detroit for years had one on the worst minor league systems. The recent improvement was not that they started selecting/drafting better players, rather when they had the fire sell and received prospects in return. Once those prospects are no longer prospects, you might actually see a return to the bottom. Thank you Chadd.



Additionally, for anyone who really tracks what is going on. Teams that are winning and making the largest gains, have mature analytics. Detroit is still one of the worst in MLB in analytics and still has an old school manager who resists using analytics. Analytics is more than just stats. The culture of drafting well and using analytics effectively is controlled by the owner and GM. Alex Avila is a laughing stock throughout MLB. He is not well respected. I repeat, he is not well respected. And that is outside this organization. The owner controls that. New owner = new GM.

 

[tomdalton22]

Additionally, for anyone who really tracks what is going on. Teams that are winning and making the largest gains, have mature analytics. Detroit is still one of the worst in MLB in analytics and still has an old school manager who resists using analytics. Analytics is more than just stats. The culture of drafting well and using analytics effectively is controlled by the owner and GM. Alex Avila is a laughing stock throughout MLB. He is not well respected. I repeat, he is not well respected. And that is outside this organization. The owner controls that. New owner = new GM.

or they are cheating

 

[Tigrrman]

You must have missed the part of being in the organization. And then you go and contradict yourself. 2006 had 8 players from 2003.

In 2006, on 8 players were even in the organization in 2003, and only 4 got playing time in 2003. The rest of the roster game from free agents and shrewd trades.

In my own honest opinion based upon research ..the 2021 and/or 2022 Tiger teams will most likely have very few current Detroit Tigers on them. I honestly do not expect more than 4 players currently on the active roster to still be here in 2022, and maybe not even that many.
Miggy is the only current Tiger player who is signed through 2023. Maybe Jimenez may still be here ..and maybe 1 or 2 of Boyd, Norris, or Fulmer.

Rebbiv .. in response to your viewpoints concerning my recent post:

Excuse me if my comments in my recent post were that unclear.
I was referring to "only 4 players on the 'active roster'" ..and in fact, I actually did say "active roster" in my post as evidenced in the above quotes.
Moreover, that was in direct reference to your own comment in your previous post when you said; "only 4 got playing time" which is also apparent in the above quotes.
As for players in the farm system (players within the organization) ..I have little doubt that if they remain healthy and not traded prior ..would it not be reasonable to suggest that at least 10 of the following could be fixtures on the Tigers active roster at some point prior to the 2023 season?
Among the potential Tiger's organizational prospects ..Faedo, Manning, Mize, Skubal, Paredes, Cameron, W. Castro, Packard, Rogers, Meadows, ..as well as potentially Greene, A. Reyes, Wentz, Richan, F. Perez, B. Burrows, and B. Garcia? Plus potentially at least one of their 2020 draft picks (especially their #1 pick.)

With that said ..my viewpoints were very reasonable.

 

[Tigrrman]

There are 30 MLB teams. If what you project is truth, we would have a different World Series champ every year and every organization would take turns.

Not necessarily! But I am willing to look at whatever evidence you might present.

HOU, BOS, NYY. LAD, etc, etc are not turning over their rosters to the extent you suggest.

Are you sure?

Teams obviously tend to keep their best players longer ..and teams that can spend the most money will typically keep their best players longer because more often those players are established successful MLB veterans.

But considering your argument ..let's take a look at just HOU's entire pitching staff for the four seasons from 2016 through 2019.
Houston's pitching staff for the entire 2916 season had 8 of 23 pitchers who were not on their 2017 team. That is a 34.8% attrition rate.
Their 2017 pitching staff had 12 of 27 pitchers who were not on their 2016 staff ..and similarly 13 of 27 who were not on their 2018 team. Those attrition rates were 44.4% and 48.1% respectively.
Their 2018 pitching staff had 9 of 22 pitchers who were not on their 2017 team ..and 8 of 22 pitchers who were not on their 2019 team. Those attrition rates were 40.9% and 36.4% respectively.
And their 2019 pitching staff had 12 of 26 pitchers who were not on their 2018 team for a 36.7% attrition rate.

I suspect same research into HOU's position players will produce similar results ..and think it is reasonable to project similar results if applied to BOS, NYY, and LAD.

Thus, it is readily apparent that Houston probably flipped their entire roster to the extent that I pointed out. In retrospect, no doubt they do not flip their most successful pitchers (players) as often!
Undoubtedly, hanging on to their most successful players longer does not necessarily apply to the Detroit Tigers right now because the Tigers MLB talent is so very thin anyway.
Therefore, it is very reasonable to suggest that of the Tigers current MLB-experienced pitchers, perhaps only 2 or 3 of their pitchers on their active roster at the beginning of the 2020 season will still be with the team during the 2022 season.

If you believe differently ..it would be interesting to see your list of the Tigers current MLB-experienced pitchers that you believe will still be with the team in 2022.

 

[Tigrrman]

Then you go on about 37% each season. And none of that even pretends to suggest they would be any good. Turning your roster over is subjective. LOL.

Actually, the average turnover rate per MLB team is quite objective. There have been numerous studies about this.


If you really want to know the actual facts ..you can find plenty of information with a quick Google search. To get you started, here is the link to the one that my "37%" reference came from:

https://sabr.org/latest/mains-why-roster-turnover-has-skyrocketed-mlb

 

[Rebbiv]

Actually, the average turnover rate per MLB team is quite objective. There have been numerous studies about this.


If you really want to know the actual facts ..you can find plenty of information with a quick Google search. To get you started, here is the link to the one that my "37%" reference came from:

https://sabr.org/latest/mains-why-roster-turnover-has-skyrocketed-mlb

Did you read the article? Or are just reading headlines and citing those?


The article goes on about how relief pitcher turnover and pitchers in general are driving the spike in turnovers. It isn't position players. Which then explains your citation about HOU's turnover.

How then does that back your argument that the 2022 Tigers will have just 4 players from 2020?

Additionally, you go on and on about the Tigers prospects. DET has just now have 5 (Mize, Manning, Skubal, Greene and Paredes) in the top 100. There is absolutely NO guarantees that even one of these in the top 100 will even make it to the majors.

FYI. Here is Daz Cameron's Away Splits last two years:

2019 = .192 BAVG .296 OBP .358 SLG .654 OPS
2018 = .254 BAVG .340 OBP .339 SLG .679 OPS

The take on Cameron and Rogers has always been that they can play defense. It is whether they can hit well enough to be a regular at the MLB level. Cameron failed miserably at AAA last year. The Tigers were better off having him stay at AA. I have higher hopes for Rogers then I do Cameron.

Look at each MLB organization from 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, and look who was listed as their top 10 players in their organization. Then extract those who made it to MLB and those they are productive. The AVERAGE isn't even 50%. It is more like 20-30%. Yet, you are thinking DET will hit on 10 of 10.

Good for you on being optimistic. Yet, you need to be realistic and you aren't. You are pulling bits and pieces from all over, trying to make a case which is not winnable. You will probably retort back to me. But quite frankly, you are worth my time.

 

[kalinecountry]

https://www.mlive.com/whitecaps/202...o-find-his-place-in-new-role-with-tigers.html
Lance Parrish looks to find his place in new role with Tigers.
Mlive

 

[kalinecountry]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/julesp...on-young-detroit-tigers-hitters/#5f599f795450
"Legendary Shithook" Lloyd McClendon Has Shifted Roles, But His Hitting Philosophies Still Haunt Young Detroit Tigers? Batters.
Forbes

 

[kalinecountry]

https://www.mlb.com/tigers/news/joe-vavra-pushing-tigers-hitters-in-downtime
Vavra using delay to challenge Tigers hitters.
Hitting coach pushes players to take advantage of analytics.
Tigers official site

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/s...-dive-into-analytics-during-break/3020578001/
Tigers hitting coach Joe Vavra wants players to deep-dive into analytics during break.
Detnews

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/...abrera-struggling-spring-training/3020483001/
Detroit Tigers hitting coach's message to players: Now's the time to get right.
Freep

 

[kalinecountry]

https://totallytigers.wordpress.com/2020/07/28/dated-and-hated-ways/
DATED AND HATED WAYS. FF Lloyd is still batting coach?
Totally Tigers