Timmy Kirkjan (sp)

[mjsb2]

You don't think players can be? And if Miguel hit 200 with no home runs do the Tigers still win the ALC. That might be far fetched but don't tell me players can't be clutch.

Players can have "clutch" hits, or "clutch" games.

But no, players do not have some innate ablity to step up and deliver a hit, or strike someone out, just because they're in a pressure situation.

Players only appear clutch due to small sample sizes and selective memory.

 

[mjsb2]

I guess batting .320 with a .200 BA with RISP is the same as .320 with a .400 BA with RISP. No such thing as clutch, lol.

Nope, just stastical variation due to smal sample sizes.

Unless you wanna argue that such a hypothetical player could bat .400 if he chose too.

Which would then mean that said player was not playing to his full abilities the majority of the time.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Players can have "clutch" hits, or "clutch" games.

But no, players do not have some innate ablity to step up and deliver a hit, or strike someone out, just because they're in a pressure situation.

Players only appear clutch due to small sample sizes and selective memory.

Yes, I think some players can come to bat or go to the mound and get a guy out because of a situation. When I see JV not look so good but shut the other team down, I see an ability to step up and get the job done regardless what his game looked like earlier.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Nope, just stastical variation due to smal sample sizes.

Unless you wanna argue that such a hypothetical player could bat .400 if he chose too.

Which would then mean that said player was not playing to his full abilities the majority of the time.

That's why its clutch.

 

[beez]

Players can have "clutch" hits, or "clutch" games.

But no, players do not have some innate ablity to step up and deliver a hit, or strike someone out, just because they're in a pressure situation.

Players only appear clutch due to small sample sizes and selective memory.

This sounds ridiculous..so some guys can't have a ton more confidence in pressure situations causing them to plays better in those situations, while some guys are nervous and afraid of the big moment causing them to fail?

Sounds legit....

 

[Mitchrapp]

I don't think a clutch light bulb comes on, lol. But some players are better in those situations because of an innate ability. Call it what you want.

 

[deathroh]

Players can have "clutch" hits, or "clutch" games.

But no, players do not have some innate ablity to step up and deliver a hit, or strike someone out, just because they're in a pressure situation.

Players only appear clutch due to small sample sizes and selective memory.

Players can also have "clutch" seasons, and they should be recognized for it when they do.

 

[mjsb2]

Yes, I think some players can come to bat or go to the mound and get a guy out because of a situation. When I see JV not look so good but shut the other team down, I see an ability to step up and get the job done regardless what his game looked like earlier.

And I've seen plenty of situations where JV failed to come through in the clutch.

Either way, until JV gets at least a couple hundred innings in high leaverage situations (he currently has a little over 100 during his career) we won't get near a large enough sample size to draw any type of conclusions from.

As far as hitters go, countless advanced studies have shown that clutch hitting is not a repetable skill.

 

[mjsb2]

Players can also have "clutch" seasons, and they should be recognized for it when they do.

How would we define/measure that?

And WPA attempts to measure how a players performance impacted his teams chance of winning. It takes into account the situation, so a walkoff HR has more value than a HR in a 15-0 blowout, so maybe that's what you're looking for.

 

[beez]

And I've seen plenty of situations where JV failed to come through in the clutch.

Either way, until JV gets at least a couple hundred innings in high leaverage situations (he currently has a little over 100 during his career) we won't get near a large enough sample size to draw any type of conclusions from.

As far as hitters go, countless advanced studies have shown that clutch hitting is not a repetable skill.

You're being ridiculous..no ones saying a clutch player never fails. Some guys have that clutch mentality. You're talking about a sport where it's great to only fail 68% of the time(offensively)..of course he's not going to come through 100% of the time.

 

[mjsb2]

I don't think a clutch light bulb comes on, lol. But some players are better in those situations because of an innate ability. Call it what you want.

If you can find me a player who from season to season consistently performed better in high leaverage situations than he did overall, then I'll concede your point.

Minimum sample size of 1,000 pa in high leaverage situations is required.

 

[mjsb2]

You're being ridiculous..no ones saying a clutch player never fails. Some guys have that clutch mentality. You're talking about a sport where it's great to only fail 68% of the time..of course he's not going to come through 100% of the time.

What's that clutch mentatiliy?

Does it somehow make him better?

Improve his swing mechanics?

His hand eye cordination?

 

[beez]

What's that clutch mentatiliy?

Does it somehow make him better?

Improve his swing mechanics?

His hand eye cordination?

Clutch means you rise to the challenge and perform under extreme pressure. Some guys are great player but shy away when the spot light is on. Have you ever played sports in your life? Ever had to get a game winning hit, or make a game winning shot? Ever feel those muscles tighten up and have a million thoughts runnning through your head that shouldn't be? Ever thought to yourself I don't this is gonna be tough, I hope I can do this?

Me either, cuz i'm clutch.

 

[deathroh]

How would we define/measure that?

And WPA attempts to measure how a players performance impacted his teams chance of winning. It takes into account the situation, so a walkoff HR has more value than a HR in a 15-0 blowout, so maybe that's what you're looking for.

Use whatever measurements you used to say a player can have clutch games, extrapolate that across a season.

 

[beez]

If you can find me a player who from season to season consistently performed better in high leaverage situations than he did overall, then I'll concede your point.

Minimum sample size of 1,000 pa in high leaverage situations is required.

I'll grab that if you can find me a left handed catchers mitt, 3 bald eagle eggs and the original sunglasses from the move men in black...

 

[Mitchrapp]

If you can find me a player who from season to season consistently performed better in high leaverage situations than he did overall, then I'll concede your point.

Minimum sample size of 1,000 pa in high leaverage situations is required.

Even baseball reference has a clutch stat. Granted they're people just like us but still..

Sorry, but I don't like to go search for information. Is it fair for me to ask you to go find proof guys can't be clutch year in and year out.

 

[mjsb2]

Use whatever measurements you used to say a player can have clutch games, extrapolate that across a season.

By a clutch game, I just meant a player had a good game in what is deemed a pressure situation.

I'd give eaqual weight to a player going 5-5 with 5 HRs in an April blowout as I would in a player going 5-5 with 5 HRs in game 163.

 

[mjsb2]

Even baseball reference has a clutch stat. Granted they're people just like us but still..

Sorry, but I don't like to go search for information. Is it fair for me to ask you to go find proof guys can't be clutch year in and year out.

You can't prove a negative, the burden of proof is on you.

I could google a few studies on the subject, all of which will say there is no such thing as a clutch player though, if you'd like.

 

[mjsb2]

Clutch means you rise to the challenge and perform under extreme pressure. Some guys are great player but shy away when the spot light is on. Have you ever played sports in your life? Ever had to get a game winning hit, or make a game winning shot? Ever feel those muscles tighten up and have a million thoughts runnning through your head that shouldn't be? Ever thought to yourself I don't this is gonna be tough, I hope I can do this?

Me either, cuz i'm clutch.

Right, but my skill set never changed.

I was always the same player, with the same talent.

I stayed the same, the situation changed.

Clutch is a myth, there's merely statistical variation in small sample sizes.

 

[mhughes0021]

Im still waiting for someone to bring up the WAR argument so they can explain to me if we didnt have miggy we would only win 6 less games. Miggys WAR should be like 30 lol.