Today's example of how Atheists are so awesome!

[Gulo Blue]

Good question. But if they didn't does it give him the right to deviate?

I'm not sure why they're censuring the speeches. I'm less concerned with whether they censure in advance or on the fly than I am about the fact that they're all such a bunch of pansies that a valedictorian can't even make a speech without fearing that someone might be offended. The government doesn't stand behind everything said in every valedictorian speech. It doesn't imply government advocacy if a valedictorian wants to thank God or his parents or Xenu or the flying spaghetti monster. To me, it's similar to a football player making the sign of the cross after a touchdown at a game between two public schools. It's a personal statement, even if it's at a government sponsored event.

...now I'd go the other way if he led a prayer that everyone was participating in. Same as the team prayer before a game.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I just don't see how anyone can honestly believe in any of these Earthly gods. The Universe is much too large for these religions..

Do any religions limit God to Earth?

 

[Michchamp]

edit: this is in response to thumb's post, in post #79.

I don't think so.

christians love to try to make out these "gray areas" or draw attention to some seemingly absurd situations in order to get more wiggle room, like the poor kid who just wants to thank his god, but can't because the big bad oppressive liberals are there to shit all over his religious freedom. Or teh "moment of silence" nonsense they tried in Illinois. really the rule is simple: if state money is used for something, religion should not be part of it, nor should the state, or a state official in their official capacity, endorse religion. if you cross that line, or try to, shame on you.

if state funds benefit a religion in a harmless way (e.g. church goers use a public sidewalk to get to the church, that others use all the time) that's usually okay, unless some monkey-business went on to finagle the funding. the rules are not even as harsh on christians as they make them out to be; courts have held that christian (or any religious) activities can take place on school property after school hours just like any other club, but the school can't make any accommodations for them that they otherwise would not get, cannot appear to endorse the activities of any one religion, and cannot selectively deny permits to other religions' activities. it's all pretty fair and straightforward, but you wouldn't know that by talking to KAWDUP. or red, when he goes off.

of course, there are 300+ million people in this country, and people make mistakes. If once and a while something religious happens, or a bunch of meatheads pray to their god after a football game on school property, lead by the coach meathead... whatever. I think most civil liberties groups and atheist organizations pick their battles carefully, and so if anything more unconstitutional worship is permitted that prevented.

 

[Gulo Blue]

really the rule is simple: if state money is used for something, religion should not be part of it, nor should the state, or a state official in their official capacity, endorse religion. if you cross that line, or try to, shame on you.

Except state money is involved in EVERYTHING.

 

[Monster]

Do any religions limit God to Earth?

Considering there are billions of stars, even more planets/moons, and we're the only inhabited world with intelligent life (that we know of)??? Yes. I'd say the gods we know of are limited to earth.

The Christian God may have created the stars, but why? There really is no reason for other stars or planets. The sun and our moon would be enough for light. And according the bible, heaven separates us from the water in the sky, so leaving the planet shouldn't really be possible. So I doubt that God would create those things for us to explore.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I think we do a pretty good job most of the time striking the appropriate balance between allowing freedom of religion without government sponsorship of it. But the rules can't always be as black & white as MC would like and sometimes they need to be tweaked a bit or people need to let rules get bent a little for practical purposes. We do that, and it works. Some religious groups are pushing religion into places it doesn't belong right now, but it's a temporary thing and we have mechanisms for fixing it.

 

[Monster]

I'm not sure why they're censuring the speeches. I'm less concerned with whether they censure in advance or on the fly than I am about the fact that they're all such a bunch of pansies that a valedictorian can't even make a speech without fearing that someone might be offended. The government doesn't stand behind everything said in every valedictorian speech. It doesn't imply government advocacy if a valedictorian wants to thank God or his parents or Xenu or the flying spaghetti monster. To me, it's similar to a football player making the sign of the cross after a touchdown at a game between two public schools. It's a personal statement, even if it's at a government sponsored event.

...now I'd go the other way if he led a prayer that everyone was participating in. Same as the team prayer before a game.

Well, my high school was the same way. During graduation, our speakers had to stick to their script. I don't know about the mention of god in the speech, but I don't see any problem with people expressing their beliefs in public school...as long as it's not interfering with other students and they aren't trying to preach. Both sides are too sensitive sometimes.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Considering there are billions of stars, even more planets/moons, and we're the only inhabited world with intelligent life (that we know of)??? Yes. I'd say the gods we know of are limited to earth.

The Christian God may have created the stars, but why? There really is no reason for other stars or planets. The sun and our moon would be enough for light. And according the bible, heaven separates us from the water in the sky, so leaving the planet shouldn't really be possible. So I doubt that God would create those things for us to explore.

I'm a little confused. It sounds like you're imposing your own views, that you don't actually believe in, on other people.

I'm questioning what they believe. You're saying they believe that God is limited to Earth. I doubt any religion actually claims that. Catholicism is friendly to the idea of extraterrestrial life and would assert they were created by the same God if they were to be discovered. Don't know about other religions.

edit: Well, maybe not ANY religion. Who was is that believes in Gaia?

2nd edit: Nope. Gaia is universal too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)

 

[Mitchrapp]

What has this world coming to when you need a pre-approved HS speech. Same way stores say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Why all the changes that are for non Christians? It's fuckin sad.

 

[Michchamp]

I think we do a pretty good job most of the time striking the appropriate balance between allowing freedom of religion without government sponsorship of it. ...

I'm glad you think those things.

 

[Michchamp]

What has this world coming to when you need a pre-approved HS speech. Same way stores say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Why all the changes that are for non Christians? It's fuckin sad.

 

[Monster]

I'm a little confused. It sounds like you're imposing your own views, that you don't actually believe in, on other people.

I'm questioning what they believe. You're saying they believe that God is limited to Earth. I doubt any religion actually claims that. Catholicism is friendly to the idea of extraterrestrial life and would assert they were created by the same God if they were to be discovered. Don't know about other religions.

edit: Well, maybe not ANY religion. Who was is that believes in Gaia?

2nd edit: Nope. Gaia is universal too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)

I'm simply responding to you. You asked if God was restricted to Earth. I stated that God created the stars and planets, but there is no real need for him to do so. There are stars that are so far away that it takes billions of years just for their light to reach us. Yet, according to the bible's timeline, the earth is only 6k years old or so. Wouldn't that already limit God to the Earth if the Universe is estimated to be about 14 billion years old?

If there is a religion out there that claims the universe is billions of years old and its deity created everything, then I'd say that would not be an Earthly god.

I know some Christians don't believe in the bible timeline, but that doesn't change the fact that it's there.

 

[Gulo Blue]

What has this world coming to when you need a pre-approved HS speech. Same way stores say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Why all the changes that are for non Christians? It's fuckin sad.

I don't know if it's just here in the South(-ish), but I do hear "Merry Christmas" from strangers. Some Happy Holidays, some Merry Christmas. To me, the "War on Christmas" was a 1 or maybe 2 year thing about 10 years ago. ...and even then, it was mostly about companies being PC which they quit pushing as soon as there was backlash.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I'm glad you think those things.

Well, you said I give the impression it's unfair. But I think it is for the most part.

 

[Monster]

What has this world coming to when you need a pre-approved HS speech. Same way stores say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Why all the changes that are for non Christians? It's fuckin sad.

I always take happy holidays as saying happy new year, merry christmas, happy (insert religious holiday here). It's still a good willed expression, but the difference is that it encompasses everyone.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I'm simply responding to you. You asked if God was restricted to Earth. I stated that God created the stars and planets, but there is no real need for him to do so. There are stars that are so far away that it takes billions of years just for their light to reach us. Yet, according to the bible's timeline, the earth is only 6k years old or so. Wouldn't that already limit God to the Earth if the Universe is estimated to be about 14 billion years old?

If there is a religion out there that claims the universe is billions of years old and its deity created everything, then I'd say that would not be an Earthly god.

I know some Christians don't believe in the bible timeline, but that doesn't change the fact that it's there.

I was asking with regard to "I just don't see how anyone can honestly believe in any of these Earthly gods. The Universe is much too large for these religions." from post #80.

The idea of a religion what would believe God is limited to Earth seems odd to me, but I'm coming at it as someone that belongs to a religion that believes in a universal God.

 

[Monster]

I was asking with regard to "I just don't see how anyone can honestly believe in any of these Earthly gods. The Universe is much too large for these religions." from post #80.

The idea of a religion what would believe God is limited to Earth seems odd to me, but I'm coming at it as someone that belongs to a religion that believes in a universal God.

Sorry, I didn't mean that religions view their gods as bound to Earth. I meant when you examine the religion from an outside perspective.

 

[Thumb]

I'm not sure why they're censuring the speeches. I'm less concerned with whether they censure in advance or on the fly than I am about the fact that they're all such a bunch of pansies that a valedictorian can't even make a speech without fearing that someone might be offended. The government doesn't stand behind everything said in every valedictorian speech. It doesn't imply government advocacy if a valedictorian wants to thank God or his parents or Xenu or the flying spaghetti monster. To me, it's similar to a football player making the sign of the cross after a touchdown at a game between two public schools. It's a personal statement, even if it's at a government sponsored event.

...now I'd go the other way if he led a prayer that everyone was participating in. Same as the team prayer before a game.

The kid could have said this is my speech (or did who knows?) and if they rejected it that's one thing. But he gave them a speech and then did not follow it, and I'm assuming he knew that if he deviated he would be muted.

Maybe that's why he did it, so he would force them to mute him and make issue of it. Taking the martyr route.

 

[Thumb]

What has this world coming to when you need a pre-approved HS speech. Same way stores say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Why all the changes that are for non Christians? It's fuckin sad.

So in your opinion, if a Jew or Muslim is shopping in December they should just deal with it when someone says "merry christmas". Yet you are having a conniption that something changed from the old christian standard?

You don't see the irony there Mitch?

 

[tinselwolverine]

What has this world coming to when you need a pre-approved HS speech. Same way stores say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Why all the changes that are for non Christians? It's fuckin sad.

My Dear Departed Uncle told me the story of when he was the valedictorian of his Catholic high school graduating class some 70 years ago (as one might have surmised, he told me this story many, many years ago).

"The Mother Superior handed me a piece of paper and told me 'read this, word for word.' Of course, I did."

Shit doesn't change.