what type of gun nut are you?

[byco42]

Well, unless you actually are championing the notion of disaming federal law enforcement agencies because some law enforcement officers of those agencies have at times used their firearms irresponsibly, then, sorry...I don't understand what your point is.

Your response was a bit oblique. My point is that federal, state and local law enforcement agencies make the same mistakes as citizens do with firearms, and the gun control advocates do not consider that justification to disarm said law enforcement agencies. They would never even consider that possibility. So I guess someone, according to them, has to own guns, just not you and me.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Your response was a bit oblique. My point is that federal, state and local law enforcement agencies make the same mistakes as citizens do with firearms, and the gun control advocates do not consider that justification to disarm said law enforcement agencies. They would never even consider that possibility. So I guess someone, according to them, has to own guns, just not you and me.

First of all, virtually everybody is a gun control advocate - or at least a firearms control advocate - I never hear any 2nd amendment proponent claiming that we should be allowed to own surface to air missile launchers and bazookas; or that metal detectors at courthouses or weapons check for domestic airline travel should be done away with.

In the famous DC case, in Scalia's majority decision corroborating the meaning of the 2nd amendment that it indeed did include the right to private ownership of firearms, he nevertheless stated that of course that didn't exclude the right of the government to reasonable regulation over gun ownership.

So gun control advocacy simply constitutes a range of how much control over guns the government should have, or attempt to have; it doesn't mean confiscation of every gun from every private citizen.

Are there gun control advocates who want that? Yeah; there are some, but that doesn't mean that everybody who advocates more gun control - or attempts at gun control - than there currently is wants that.

 

[TheVictors]

There was a burglary in our neighborhood a few summers ago where the homeowner -- in defense of himself and property -- shot and killed the 16yr old intruder. While never charged criminally in shooting and killing the intruder, based on it being "self-defense," a different side of the debate came to light in some of the local media.

The homeowner -- a 30-something fitness instructor -- had a very difficult time in dealing with having killed the 16yr old. Sure he was breaking into his house and would have certainly stolen possessions (summer open window burglaries aren't unheard of where we live) but was it worth killing him and ...no matter the justification for it, was killing a 16yr old boy something he could live with.

The family did forgive him as was relayed publicly but more than being a "right to bear arms" story, it became a "can you live with the consequences of your actions" debate.

And I think there are a lot of gun owners out there who really haven't thought through that side of things.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

First of all, virtually everybody is a gun control advocate - or at least a firearms control advocate - I never hear any 2nd amendment proponent claiming that we should be allowed to own surface to air missile launchers and bazookas; or that metal detectors at courthouses or weapons check for domestic airline travel should be done away with.

In the famous DC case, in Scalia's majority decision corroborating the meaning of the 2nd amendment that it indeed did include the right to private ownership of firearms, he nevertheless stated that of course that didn't exclude the right of the government to reasonable regulation over gun ownership.

So gun control advocacy simply constitutes a range of how much control over guns the government should have, or attempt to have; it doesn't mean confiscation of every gun from every private citizen.

Are there gun control advocates who want that? Yeah; there are some, but that doesn't mean that everybody who advocates more gun control - or attempts at gun control - than there currently is wants that.

I'd argue that every firearm should be legal for any citizen to own but different levels of certification would be needed for each. Technically a citizen can own these things if the government gives it a $200 tax stamp. It's a loophole in the law that allows them to give out automatic weapons to basically anyone they see fit. There are a bunch of pre-1986 weapons that already had a tax stamp on them which are perfectly legal for citizens to own but pretty much nothing post-1986. Now that tax stamp is almost exclusively given out to private security firms so they can own military-style weapons but are still technically private citizens.

I see explosives as an entirely different realm not covered under "arms". So things like RPG's, bombs and nukes would not be something covered under the 2nd amendment.

 

[hungry]

But - that isn't true - you're not just a guy; you're a trained law enforcement/criminal justice professional, employed by the government to protect citizens against criminals.

Any rationale person who knows that would expect that you've undergone significant weapons use and safety training, and have passed psychological evaluations - I wouldn't be surprised if you are required to pass one perioodically - that demonstrate your emotional stability.

It would be expacted that munitions that might be illegal for regular civilians would not be so for you, and that you would know how to use them responsibly and safely.

I didn't have to pass a psych eval

I could pass a psych eval even if i were a sociopath

there are no periodical psych evals

there probably should be since working in an environment like I do could cause someone who was sane to go insane.

Other than the fact that I've already passed significant background checks, I'm not aware that any guns or ammo are available to me than what is available to some other citizen.

My enhanced training would make me more deadly than some 20 year old punk off the street

 

[TheVictors]

Growing up my best friend's Dad was a police officer. One time while in Jr High I was sleeping over at his house when his older brother rolled in from a night of drinking and decided to get their Dad's back up hand gun out and terrorize us with it.

I've never been more scared in my life - he was sitting on my buddy and pointing the gun at him (apparently with the Safety on, but still).

Older brother was in Jail and then rehab not too long after that and is a perfectly fine resident of Detroit, but he was a cop's kid with access to the gun because he was a cop's kid.

 

[zyxt9]

But - that isn't true - you're not just a guy; you're a trained law enforcement/criminal justice professional, employed by the government to protect citizens against criminals.

Any rationale person who knows that would expect that you've undergone significant weapons use and safety training, and have passed psychological evaluations - I wouldn't be surprised if you are required to pass one perioodically - that demonstrate your emotional stability.

It would be expacted that munitions that might be illegal for regular civilians would not be so for you, and that you would know how to use them responsibly and safely.

Right cuz there have NEVER been cases of cops or other versions of law enforcement commiting any crime, including murder of more than 3 people. Less common, yes, by far, but not non-existent.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

Growing up my best friend's Dad was a police officer. One time while in Jr High I was sleeping over at his house when his older brother rolled in from a night of drinking and decided to get their Dad's back up hand gun out and terrorize us with it.

I've never been more scared in my life - he was sitting on my buddy and pointing the gun at him (apparently with the Safety on, but still).

Older brother was in Jail and then rehab not too long after that and is a perfectly fine resident of Detroit, but he was a cop's kid with access to the gun because he was a cop's kid.

See, if you were armed you could have shot him for pointing a gun at you and saved the tax payers a ton of money in prison funds. Although, then Hungry would be without a job.

 

[Michchamp]

true story:

to buy firearms/ammo in illinois, you have to have a FOID card (Firearm Owners ID).

on the application it asks explicitly if you have any felony convictions, use illegal drugs, or are mentally retarded.

no joke: it says "Are you mentally retarded? [] Yes [] No"

the state police run a background check on you, but I'm not sure how or what information regarding your mental history would be revealed by that; and Illinois is considered as having the toughest gun laws in the nation...

 

[zyxt9]

So wife came home today and said one of her students...a 2nd grader...informed his ESL teacher and Para that he has planned out a way to kill his alcoholic mother.

Naturally all reports were filed and sent up the chain of command. You know what will happen to the kid? NOTHING. Why? Because King Mike Bloomberg would rather tell Obama to implement some gun law than take care of the real problem, the psyche of kids.

You have no idea how many crazy lunatics have gone through that school and never even had a single day of suspension for things, including one 5th grader who pulled a knife on my wife. Yep, kid was back in her class the next day, no punishment at all. Had another throw a chair at her, another who would feel up every female around him (definitely not bound to become a sex offender...no chance of that, right?). What happens to these kids? NOTHING!!!

And you guys wonder why these types of events are happening more frequently. Because kids are being passed up through grades and sent out onto the streets with zero respect or discipline. Politicians don't want to upset even a single parent who might start something politically, so they pressure the schools - here in NYC at least - and the Principals, who gave up tenure because of King Mike's ultimatum, have zero recourse but to bow to the politicians will and the kids get zero punishment OR EVEN PROPER COUNSELING!!!

But let's blame the guns...cuz that is the easy scapegoat.

 

[Michchamp]

So wife came home today and said one of her students...a 2nd grader...informed his ESL teacher and Para that he has planned out a way to kill his alcoholic mother.

Naturally all reports were filed and sent up the chain of command. You know what will happen to the kid? NOTHING. Why? Because King Mike Bloomberg would rather tell Obama to implement some gun law than take care of the real problem, the psyche of kids.

You have no idea how many crazy lunatics have gone through that school and never even had a single day of suspension for things, including one 5th grader who pulled a knife on my wife. Yep, kid was back in her class the next day, no punishment at all. Had another throw a chair at her, another who would feel up every female around him (definitely not bound to become a sex offender...no chance of that, right?). What happens to these kids? NOTHING!!!

And you guys wonder why these types of events are happening more frequently. Because kids are being passed up through grades and sent out onto the streets with zero respect or discipline. Politicians don't want to upset even a single parent who might start something politically, so they pressure the schools - here in NYC at least - and the Principals, who gave up tenure because of King Mike's ultimatum, have zero recourse but to bow to the politicians will and the kids get zero punishment OR EVEN PROPER COUNSELING!!!

But let's blame the guns...cuz that is the easy scapegoat.

nice rant. 9/10.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

true story:

to buy firearms/ammo in illinois, you have to have a FOID card (Firearm Owners ID).

on the application it asks explicitly if you have any felony convictions, use illegal drugs, or are mentally retarded.

no joke: it says "Are you mentally retarded? [] Yes [] No"

the state police run a background check on you, but I'm not sure how or what information regarding your mental history would be revealed by that; and Illinois is considered as having the toughest gun laws in the nation...

I think they're more so considered to have the toughest because they don't allow any kind of concealed carry. Although, last week there was a court ruling that may have ruled that ban unconstitutional.

 

[Michchamp]

I think they're more so considered to have the toughest because they don't allow any kind of concealed carry. Although, last week there was a court ruling that may have ruled that ban unconstitutional.

it did.

was shooting trap last year at a range in suburban Chicago. they had all the standard NRA literature on the walls, I was reading it while waiting for my next round, and there was a map of the US with the states color-coded based on their level of firearms regulation.

Illinois was the only state colored blood red with a yellow hammer & sickle in the middle... ha. we are (or were) communists because we didn't allow CC.

the NRA guys who print this stuff are laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Right cuz there have NEVER been cases of cops or other versions of law enforcement commiting any crime, including murder of more than 3 people. Less common, yes, by far, but not non-existent.

My guess is there was supposed to be some kind of point to this post.

Maybe you posted this because you thought that nobody here was aware that law enforcement personnel sometimes do commit crimes.

If that's the case though I think you were wrong, I think everybody here knew that already.

 

[hungry]

true story:

to buy firearms/ammo in illinois, you have to have a FOID card (Firearm Owners ID).

on the application it asks explicitly if you have any felony convictions, use illegal drugs, or are mentally retarded.

no joke: it says "Are you mentally retarded? [] Yes [] No"

the state police run a background check on you, but I'm not sure how or what information regarding your mental history would be revealed by that; and Illinois is considered as having the toughest gun laws in the nation...

Yep, while travelling, before we cross the Illinois state line, we have to take our handguns out, empty them, and put them in the back of the car. Then when we get through Illinois and cross the next border, we have to get our handguns out, load them, and then put them where we carry them near the front seat. what a pain in the ass!

 

[hungry]

So wife came home today and said one of her students...a 2nd grader...informed his ESL teacher and Para that he has planned out a way to kill his alcoholic mother.

Naturally all reports were filed and sent up the chain of command. You know what will happen to the kid? NOTHING. Why? Because King Mike Bloomberg would rather tell Obama to implement some gun law than take care of the real problem, the psyche of kids.

You have no idea how many crazy lunatics have gone through that school and never even had a single day of suspension for things, including one 5th grader who pulled a knife on my wife. Yep, kid was back in her class the next day, no punishment at all. Had another throw a chair at her, another who would feel up every female around him (definitely not bound to become a sex offender...no chance of that, right?). What happens to these kids? NOTHING!!!

And you guys wonder why these types of events are happening more frequently. Because kids are being passed up through grades and sent out onto the streets with zero respect or discipline. Politicians don't want to upset even a single parent who might start something politically, so they pressure the schools - here in NYC at least - and the Principals, who gave up tenure because of King Mike's ultimatum, have zero recourse but to bow to the politicians will and the kids get zero punishment OR EVEN PROPER COUNSELING!!!

But let's blame the guns...cuz that is the easy scapegoat.

Yep, less and less personal responsibility or discipline these days, but that doesn't lead to anything...

 

[lostleader]

I dont think I fall in any one specific category.

I will go with the Voltron Gun Nut title, just cause It should like I should be wearing a cape. Maybe a red suit with a lightning bolt across the chest. Sounds great.

 

[bphillips4gg]

So wife came home today and said one of her students...a 2nd grader...informed his ESL teacher and Para that he has planned out a way to kill his alcoholic mother.

Naturally all reports were filed and sent up the chain of command. You know what will happen to the kid? NOTHING. Why? Because King Mike Bloomberg would rather tell Obama to implement some gun law than take care of the real problem, the psyche of kids.

You have no idea how many crazy lunatics have gone through that school and never even had a single day of suspension for things, including one 5th grader who pulled a knife on my wife. Yep, kid was back in her class the next day, no punishment at all. Had another throw a chair at her, another who would feel up every female around him (definitely not bound to become a sex offender...no chance of that, right?). What happens to these kids? NOTHING!!!

And you guys wonder why these types of events are happening more frequently. Because kids are being passed up through grades and sent out onto the streets with zero respect or discipline. Politicians don't want to upset even a single parent who might start something politically, so they pressure the schools - here in NYC at least - and the Principals, who gave up tenure because of King Mike's ultimatum, have zero recourse but to bow to the politicians will and the kids get zero punishment OR EVEN PROPER COUNSELING!!!

But let's blame the guns...cuz that is the easy scapegoat.

That's where I stand. I'm sick and tired of people leveraging these situations to promote their political agenda, and I'm sick and tired of them deflecting the blame from the people that commit the crimes to the inanimate object that hundreds of thousands of other people own and use responsibly.

When Jovan Belcher killed his girlfriend and then himself, people were all saying "Oh those poor people wouldn't be dead without guns". No, they wouldn't be dead if they weren't in an abusive, disfunctional relationship with one another. Without the guns, she'd have been beaten to death or stabbed.

It's time for people to be held accountable. I haven't looked at any numbers, but I'm sure there's probably more innocent people hurt or killed by drunk drivers than there are guns, but I don't hear clamoring for cars to be outlawed...

 

[tinselwolverine]

That's where I stand. I'm sick and tired of people leveraging these situations to promote their political agenda, and I'm sick and tired of them deflecting the blame from the people that commit the crimes to the inanimate object that hundreds of thousands of other people own and use responsibly.

It's time for people to be held accountable. I haven't looked at any numbers, but I'm sure there's probably more innocent people hurt or killed by drunk drivers than there are guns, but I don't hear clamoring for cars to be outlawed...

Hate to break it to ya...

Yes...there's been a good amount of clamoring for people driving cars drunk to be outlawed - MADD, and so forth - kinda surprised that ya missed it.

So much so, that it, in fact has happened.

Drunk driving has been outlawed.

And drunk drivers who kill people are held accountable - not as accountable as some claim they should be, but that's another argument.

I guess, though, we should probably just overturn all those laws, because, ya know, people are gonna break the law and drive drunk anyway, and hurt and kill people.

Know what I'm sick and tired of?

I'm sick and tired of people jumping to the conclusion that any reasonable additional gun restrictions to the ones that we already have - like for example, disallowing the private ownership of military assault weapons; better background checks and so forth - is the same as advocating the confiscation of all guns from hundreds of thousands of people (it's actually millions) who own and use their guns responsibly.

Edit: Oh, and also - we can't hold Adam Lanza any more accountable than he held accoutability to himself - 'cause he's fuckin' dead by his own fuckin' hand - so a fuckin' lotta good holding personal accountability towards the perp does us in this situation.

 

[JScottWriter]

Agree Tinsel, it is amazing how bogus or ridiculous some arguments are on this subject.