Zimmerman To Be Charged

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

No it doesn't, not in practical reality.

Florida's aggressor statute:

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

In particular, pay attention to 2(a) which basically says, "well if you started it, but now you still think you're going to die and can't retreat, shoot to kill!"

Under that subsection an initial attacker can absolutely use deadly force. Also notice that section 1 only applies to forcible FELONIES. Simple battery is not a felony.

As a result, your gentleman who goes up and punches a guy absolutely CAN use deadly force if he reasonably believes his life is threatened in Florida.

I still don't think that provides any justification for Treyvon. The two parts specifically that hurt Treyvon's case (should he have had a gun) are in section a: 1. "reasonable belief that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm" and 2. "he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger". Basically, 2(a) hurts your claim more than it helps it.

Again, being followed is not something that the state considers a "reasonable belief that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm". I've said this before, but if that were true - then every paparazzi would be shot in Florida.

So let's assume Treyvon shot Zimmerman after Zimmerman had followed him and started the fight. Treyvon had 0 wounds on him. He shot a guy to death. How would he prove the fear for his life? Why couldn't he have escaped? Why does the dead guy have a broken nose and the back of his head bashed? When you put it like that, simply reversing who got shot and killed, I think Treyvon would be in jail today.

Heck, even flip it this way - Say Zimmerman had 0 wounds on him and Treyvon had a broken nose and a gashes on the back of his head. On top of that, it showed instead that Zimmerman was on top of Treyvon when he shot him. How would that have changed this case? I'm betting that Zimmerman is in jail now because winning the fight, and having suffered no injuries, no matter who starts it, removes any reasonable belief that your life was in danger or you feared of great bodily harm.

The only way in which he might have a self defense case is if Zimmerman had been brandishing his firearm, at any point, prior to his head getting beat against the ground. Other than that, I just don't see it.

Simple battery is not a felony, however, felony assault and battery causes significant injury or damage to the victim or is committed against an elderly person or a child. I think it's safe to say that once you start bashing someone's head into the cement that it goes from a misdemeanor to a felony. At that point, you're using the cement as a weapon - which almost always escalates it to a felony. Just another way I think Treyvon loses his self defense claim.

And I do want to point out that I think there is a good case to be made that Treyvon was innocent as well. I just don't think that you can prove it with the evidence we have. Like I said, I think Zimmerman is not guilty with the evidence presented but we simply don't know enough about what happened that night to call him innocent. A lot of my argument revolves around the story that Zimmerman has told because unfortunately that's the best piece of evidence there is. He very well could have ran after Treyvon, gun in hand, Treyvon jumped him and started beating him on the ground trying to get the gun away in which case he was shot. We'll never know.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I've said this before, but if that were true - then every paparazzi would be shot in Florida.

Along with every polar bear.

 

[tigersofjustice]

I still don't think that provides any justification for Treyvon. The two parts specifically that hurt Treyvon's case (should he have had a gun) are in section a: 1. "reasonable belief that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm" and 2. "he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger". Basically, 2(a) hurts your claim more than it helps it.

Again, being followed is not something that the state considers a "reasonable belief that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm". I've said this before, but if that were true - then every paparazzi would be shot in Florida.

So let's assume Treyvon shot Zimmerman after Zimmerman had followed him and started the fight. Treyvon had 0 wounds on him. He shot a guy to death. How would he prove the fear for his life? Why couldn't he have escaped? Why does the dead guy have a broken nose and the back of his head bashed? When you put it like that, simply reversing who got shot and killed, I think Treyvon would be in jail today.

Heck, even flip it this way - Say Zimmerman had 0 wounds on him and Treyvon had a broken nose and a gashes on the back of his head. On top of that, it showed instead that Zimmerman was on top of Treyvon when he shot him. How would that have changed this case? I'm betting that Zimmerman is in jail now because winning the fight, and having suffered no injuries, no matter who starts it, removes any reasonable belief that your life was in danger or you feared of great bodily harm.

The only way in which he might have a self defense case is if Zimmerman had been brandishing his firearm, at any point, prior to his head getting beat against the ground. Other than that, I just don't see it.

Simple battery is not a felony, however, felony assault and battery causes significant injury or damage to the victim or is committed against an elderly person or a child. I think it's safe to say that once you start bashing someone's head into the cement that it goes from a misdemeanor to a felony. At that point, you're using the cement as a weapon - which almost always escalates it to a felony. Just another way I think Treyvon loses his self defense claim.

And I do want to point out that I think there is a good case to be made that Treyvon was innocent as well. I just don't think that you can prove it with the evidence we have. Like I said, I think Zimmerman is not guilty with the evidence presented but we simply don't know enough about what happened that night to call him innocent. A lot of my argument revolves around the story that Zimmerman has told because unfortunately that's the best piece of evidence there is. He very well could have ran after Treyvon, gun in hand, Treyvon jumped him and started beating him on the ground trying to get the gun away in which case he was shot. We'll never know.

You are making a lot of assumptions in this write up. Really the point of it is that it is a very subjective statute that gives a lot of weight to whether or not somebody believed they could escape and believed they should be in fear for their life.

Not only that but you're assuming that "provocation" is the same thing as initiating violence with violence, it isn't. You don't have to provoke somebody with violence of your own to wind up in a violent situation. Case in point, somebody who is armed, dressed in civilian clothes, following somebody through a neighborhood. That's going to result in some kind of violence a good percentage of the time if the two get face to face.

 

[Michchamp]

... Case in point, somebody who is armed, dressed in civilian clothes, following somebody through a neighborhood. That's going to result in some kind of violence a good percentage of the time if the two get face to face.

better case in point: the actions of that OTHER loser in Florida (Dunn) that killed a kid in another car at a gas station. the provocation: they wouldn't turn down their music as he demanded. the link is in the other thread I posted, which I'm hoping the mods move to this section. you can guess the races of the people involved...

he's been denied bail, and was arrested almost immediately (unlike Zimmerman)... but his attorney in this case is basing his entire defense on FL's SYG law. the separate stand your ground hearing is coming up, and if a judge decides the case meets that burden, he could go scott-free. that's how crazy this law is: the judge can deny bail based on the threat he poses to the community & threat of flight, and yet he could still walk, before the trial, because of a valid SYG claim.

My guess is that while most NRA members, Rick Scott, and a lot of Florida judges probably think he should, and probably are okay with it... it did occur in a gas station near a crowded shopping center, surrounded by Christmas-shopping witnesses, (retail businesses were def NOT happy about that), and if he walks in this case, it could really put the pressure on the state to overturn the law, which they'd rather not do. so I think the authorities make sure he rots in jail, in order to defuse the political opposition.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

You are making a lot of assumptions in this write up. Really the point of it is that it is a very subjective statute that gives a lot of weight to whether or not somebody believed they could escape and believed they should be in fear for their life.

Not only that but you're assuming that "provocation" is the same thing as initiating violence with violence, it isn't. You don't have to provoke somebody with violence of your own to wind up in a violent situation. Case in point, somebody who is armed, dressed in civilian clothes, following somebody through a neighborhood. That's going to result in some kind of violence a good percentage of the time if the two get face to face.

I won't deny that there's some assuming in all of this - there has to be because we simply don't know what happened. The statute is subjective to some extent but I think there are previous instances where the law has been applied that you can gather how the justice system interprets the law. If you start following me, I can't just shoot you because I thought you were threatening my life. To some extent, you have to prove that there was a reasonable threat to your life that existed. When this originally happened, Zimmerman had enough proof at the time for the police and the original prosecutor to agree that he was justified in his actions.

I don't think provoking is the same thing as initiating the violence but I think it's debatable whether or not Zimmerman provoked anything - at least with the information we have. Clearly Treyvon noticed that he was being followed. But Treyvon should have had no idea that Zimmerman was armed; hence concealed carry. That is, if Zimmerman's story is true. As I said, it's possible that Zimmerman took his gun out far too early and did threaten Treyvon with his firearm - which would mean Zimmerman is guilty of everything he was accused of. But following someone, especially if done more discretely, isn't necessarily going to result in violence. You can follow someone by pretending just to be out on a walk. It was the way Zimmerman decided to follow Treyvon that was a little more aggressive in nature.

My point - I just think there's a lot of assumptions from either side and I don't think anyone really knows what happened. And because there's that doubt, Zimmerman is a free man. There are thousands of situations that could have played out that almost certainly would have resulted in a different outcome.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

better case in point: the actions of that OTHER loser in Florida (Dunn) that killed a kid in another car at a gas station. the provocation: they wouldn't turn down their music as he demanded. the link is in the other thread I posted, which I'm hoping the mods move to this section. you can guess the races of the people involved...

he's been denied bail, and was arrested almost immediately (unlike Zimmerman)... but his attorney in this case is basing his entire defense on FL's SYG law. the separate stand your ground hearing is coming up, and if a judge decides the case meets that burden, he could go scott-free. that's how crazy this law is: the judge can deny bail based on the threat he poses to the community & threat of flight, and yet he could still walk, before the trial, because of a valid SYG claim.

My guess is that while most NRA members, Rick Scott, and a lot of Florida judges probably think he should, and probably are okay with it... it did occur in a gas station near a crowded shopping center, surrounded by Christmas-shopping witnesses, (retail businesses were def NOT happy about that), and if he walks in this case, it could really put the pressure on the state to overturn the law, which they'd rather not do. so I think the authorities make sure he rots in jail, in order to defuse the political opposition.

I think the larger thing, not mentioned, is that the guy in the case you're talking about left the scene of the crime. You don't leave the scene and wait until the next day unless you know you've done something wrong.

 

[redandguilty]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...mmermans-acquittal/?google_editors_picks=true

ABC took some guesses at what might have been the keys to the outcome. I don't interpret these as the strongest pieces of evidence, they're the strongest things that might have raised doubt regarding Zimmerman's guilt.

1) The defense asked the lead investigator if he thought Zimmerman was telling the truth. He said 'yes'. Prosecutors waited until the next day to get the judge to order the jury to ignore that.

2) John Good's description of what he saw (regarding shirt and skin color) was Martin on top of Zimmerman throwing punches.

3) Rachel Jeantel was talked down from her description of events to 'I don't know".

4) A forensics expert testified that Martin's injury and powder burns indicated that his shirt was 2-4" from his skin when he was shot, suggesting that he was leaning over Zimmerman.

5) Martin's dad said the cries for help were not his son when he was 1st questioned.

Not evidence, but it also may have factored in significantly that the lead investigator said the prosecutors should go for manslaughter from the start. They didn't.

 

[mhughes0021]

an unarmed 17 year old gets shot and he wasn't breaking any laws, that's the tragedy here.

I think the fact the man who shot him isn't in jail is moreso the tragedy and show how incompetent our judicial system is. Murderers are running around free while im paying taxes to jail people that smoke pot....fucking dumb country.

 

[mhughes0021]

I think you need to remember the role of a neighborhood watchman. His job is to observe and report to the authorities, not to engage a criminal or stalk someone you consider suspicious. Real policemen are trained and screened for these situations. You dont have loose cannons out here so you avoid these situations

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

then why did ben stiller blow up the Costco?

 

[redandguilty]

then why did ben stiller blow up the Costco?

Game. Set. Match.

 

[TheVictors]

I think random people from all walks of life, armed with guns, should follow George Zimmerman forever and ever, Amen.

Eye for an Eye sorta shit ....just wacko vigilantes all stalking his suspicious ass for decades!

 

[Diggler Cometh]

I think random people from all walks of life, armed with guns, should follow George Zimmerman forever and ever, Amen.

Eye for an Eye sorta shit ....just wacko vigilantes all stalking his suspicious ass for decades!

Like Coon and friends...

 

[Michchamp]

I think random people from all walks of life, armed with guns, should follow George Zimmerman forever and ever, Amen.

Eye for an Eye sorta shit ....just wacko vigilantes all stalking his suspicious ass for decades!

was kinda thinking the same thing. hey, it's "legal" right? and he looks so suspicious walking around like that... just following him to make sure. it's every citizens right to follow around other citizens and demand to know what they're doing. and if they get annoyed by it and/or push you, hit you, etc. you can just blast them. totally cool.

 

[redandguilty]

Time to bring up Phoenix Jones?

According to him, he's broken 3 ribs and his nose, he's been shot twice, stabbed twice, and arrested countless times.
http://vimeo.com/69041352

 

[redandguilty]

 

[Michchamp]

FOX... with the hard hitting news...

 

[redandguilty]

FOX... with the hard hitting news...

Bait and switch...

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44848642/...ed-accused-pepper-spray-assault/#.UeSvQkGW-So

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23298210

http://abcnews.go.com/US/real-life-seattle-superhero-phoenix-jones-suffers-broken/story?id=12589895

http://abcnews.go.com/US/citizen-su...rested-seattle/story?id=14704985#.UeSwc0GW-So

 

[redandguilty]

Based on an initial vote, three — including B37 — were in favor of acquittal, two wanted manslaughter and one wanted second-degree murder. She said the jury started going through all the evidence, listening to tapes multiple times.

‘‘That’s why it took us so long,’’ B37 said.

When they started looking at the law, the person who initially wanted second-degree murder changed her vote to manslaughter, the juror said. Then they asked for clarification from the judge and kept going over it again and again. B37 said some jurors wanted to find Zimmerman guilty of something, but there was just no place to go based on the law,

B37 said jurors cried when they gave their final vote to the bailiff.

http://www.boston.com/ae/books/2013...end-himself/WsVtvNNaE6noiZnDaRWBkJ/story.html

There's a video there too. That one juror thinks 5 of 6 jurors were sure it was Zimmerman yelling for help.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Bait and switch...

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44848642/...ed-accused-pepper-spray-assault/#.UeSvQkGW-So

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23298210

http://abcnews.go.com/US/real-life-seattle-superhero-phoenix-jones-suffers-broken/story?id=12589895

http://abcnews.go.com/US/citizen-su...rested-seattle/story?id=14704985#.UeSwc0GW-So

Wow.

I had no idea that Phoenix Jones, superhero, sported one of them Kid and Play style House Party dos' when uncoweled.

Which reminds me of my favorite song from that movie; Always and Forever.

In fact, I like that song so much it was the wedding song for my most recent wedding.

So with no further adieu, ladies and gentlemen...

So for here for everyone's enjoyment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiI42aZ5F40

 

[redandguilty]

Wow.

I had no idea that Phoenix Jones, superhero, sported one of them Kid and Play style House Party dos' when uncoweled.