Gibbons kicked off team

[Gulo Blue]

So washtenaw watchdog published his online thing in August 2013, and the policy change was in September 2013. It makes you wonder if they changed their policy specifically for Gibbons.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I look forward to those answers.

I find it troubling that the university had policies in place at any point in time that precluded themselves from acting on this.

I also find it troubling that upon the university learning of the allegations and arrest in November of 2009, that it would take them until September of 2013 for them to change/modify/add some policy in such a manner that they could begin to investigate.

I also find it troubling that through that whole window of time (little over 4 years), the football program, which has the flexibility to operate at a higher standard than the legal system or the university in terms of keeping a player playing, seemingly chose to do nothing short of keeping the kid playing and enjoying all the trappings of a scholarship athlete.

Well, keep in mind, there was nobody pushing this thing to go forward from 09-13. The police didn't find enough evidence and the accuser didn't press charges. Hoke must have known about it, but he was probably told the Gibbons side of it. If memory serves, if you looked at the all the reports, there wasn't enough there to prove he did it, but enough to say there was more than a 50% chance it reached the level established in the new rules, I forget the phrasing. But the new 50% rule wasn't established until 2011, and by then, nobody was pushing for this thing to go forward.

It's important that the University explains what went wrong, but I suspect that's it.

 

[RedeemerKid]

So washtenaw watchdog published his online thing in August 2013, and the policy change was in September 2013. It makes you wonder if they changed their policy specifically for Gibbons.

I'd bet they initiated the policy change because of the online report that appeared. Probably should have started that process back in 2009, or at least when Doug Smith made public comments on this story at the Board of Regents meeting in November 2011.

 

[thewolverines24]

Gulo just nailed it in his last post.

I will say this, I'm very happy that Gibbons and Lewan will never play for Michigan again. This whole situation was handled very poorly. I wish the girl would have pressed charges so this was investigated to the fullest extent. I wish it was easier for people put in that situation to feel like pressing charges is the right thing to do. It's sad that so many of these cases aren't pursued because of fear of public ridicule and further humiliation.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Also, while I didn't read everything on that watchdog website, if I remember correctly, the reports there suggested this was a grey area acquaintance rape. There was no question that it happened and they might have been making out before it happened and they might have been seen cuddling in public afterwards. There was a disagreement about whether there was consent and a lot of alcohol involved. I think at one point I had the impression that the victim was probably too intoxicated to give consent and Gibbons probably just heard what he wanted to hear. It was hailhail that contradicted that position with personal information not available in the reports. It seems from MGoBlog and Reddit there are plenty of people that personally had bad impressions of Gibbons. It's possible new information came to light after the watchdog thing.

I also vaguely remember a case from the 90's where a student, not an athelete, was accused of rape after he was accepted but before he was on campus and there were issues associated with the University's power to do anything about it back then. But I can't find anything online about it.

 

[hungry]

Lets hear hungry defend gibbons more. Vaginal tearing and bruising? Whats the problem? Happens all the time

Yep, vaginal tearing and bruising happens all of the time, especially with athletes. I've personally caused it lots of times.

that being said, I will not defend Gibbons and even stated at the time that he was not convicted, so we don't know what happened.

After he missed the OSU game with an "injury" and then the bowl game with a "family matter" i openly and repeatedly questioned both lies from Hoke. I guess you missed that? I knew something was up, but no one was talking about it.

 

[Sbee]

Yep, vaginal tearing and bruising happens all of the time, especially with athletes. I've personally caused it lots of times.

that being said, I will not defend Gibbons and even stated at the time that he was not convicted, so we don't know what happened.

After he missed the OSU game with an "injury" and then the bowl game with a "family matter" i openly and repeatedly questioned both lies from Hoke. I guess you missed that? I knew something was up, but no one was talking about it.

So you're saying that the football program covered this up by making up an injury and then a family matter?

 

[hungry]

Those were the stated reasons given by Hoke for him missing the OSU game and the bowl game. Did you miss those? I find that hard to believe that you missed my posts about that and that you missed those items in Hoke's press conference given your fondness for all of my posts.

 

[Sbee]

Those were the stated reasons given by Hoke for him missing the OSU game and the bowl game. Did you miss those? I find that hard to believe that you missed my posts about that and that you missed those items in Hoke's press conference given your fondness for all of my posts.

If you're saying that Hoke lied about the injury and family matter as a potential cover up then he should be fired on the spot. Just say that he violated team rules, that's the standard way of disciplining someone without giving the details of their mistake.

 

[Gulo Blue]

There's no point disusing this with Sbee. S/he doesn't even think of us as decent human beings and s/he interprets what we post in the worst possible way. See post #35. S/he doesn't even see that we have a problem with this and thinks we have to imagine how we'd feel if this had happened at an SEC school.

 

[RedeemerKid]

Well, keep in mind, there was nobody pushing this thing to go forward from 09-13. The police didn't find enough evidence and the accuser didn't press charges. Hoke must have known about it, but he was probably told the Gibbons side of it. If memory serves, if you looked at the all the reports, there wasn't enough there to prove he did it, but enough to say there was more than a 50% chance it reached the level established in the new rules, I forget the phrasing. But the new 50% rule wasn't established until 2011, and by then, nobody was pushing for this thing to go forward.

It's important that the University explains what went wrong, but I suspect that's it.

Well, the victim was seemingly pushing for this to go forward. Douglas Smith was seemingly pushing in 2011.

I don't quite understand the differentiation in jurisdiction and powers between AA Police and University Police, but I heard on the radio this morning that she decided not to pursue criminal charges (which would seem different than the local police simply not finding enough evidence to charge) but instead wanted this investigation pursued within the university. Then we understand that the university had policies in place precluding them to investigate, and they chose not to modify that policy until late 2013.

It's all still coming together, and I look forward to it all making sense at some point. But right now, the answers to the questions seem to just create more questions.

 

[hungry]

I've been very vocal about Hoke lying in press conference to the point of several posters getting mad at me. I guess you missed all that. Maybe you should consider that you don't read every post before you run your mouth about shit you know nothing about.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Well, the victim was seemingly pushing for this to go forward. Douglas Smith was seemingly pushing in 2011.

I don't quite understand the differentiation in jurisdiction and powers between AA Police and University Police, but I heard on the radio this morning that she decided not to pursue criminal charges (which would seem different than the local police simply not finding enough evidence to charge) but instead wanted this investigation pursued within the university. Then we understand that the university had policies in place precluding them to investigate, and they chose not to modify that policy until late 2013.

It's all still coming together, and I look forward to it all making sense at some point. But right now, the answers to the questions seem to just create more questions.

I didn't know that (about the victim pushing the school). Someone at the University had better speak up.

Regarding Douglas Smith, I think he was pushing university people and being ignored because he's been throwing anything he can at the university to see if it'll stick. If you look at his website now, there's something about discrediting the Gerald Ford/Willis Ward story. Where he did make a difference was in getting other people to talk about it in August 2013. Instead of going before the administration who were used to tuning him out, he went to the public. I think that restarted the push.

 

[Michchamp]

I look forward to those answers.

I find it troubling that the university had policies in place at any point in time that precluded themselves from acting on this.

I also find it troubling that upon the university learning of the allegations and arrest in November of 2009, that it would take them until September of 2013 for them to change/modify/add some policy in such a manner that they could begin to investigate.

I also find it troubling that through that whole window of time (little over 4 years), the football program, which has the flexibility to operate at a higher standard than the legal system or the university in terms of keeping a player playing, seemingly chose to do nothing short of keeping the kid playing and enjoying all the trappings of a scholarship athlete.

I think most of us (aside from two posters) here find the whole situation awful, and are not defending anything anyone did, but neither do I think it's fair to cast stones when we don't know who knew what at what point in time, and what they may have been told. I also think Hoke's decision to keep Gibbons out of the Bowl Game might've been linked to this, despite what they said. This is also disappointing... but hey, few coaches ever come clean about why a guy is suspended during bowl prep week, right? can't blame Hoke for that.

and I know changes to policies and investigations (when done right) take time, unlike the world of knee-jerk message board commenting. and in light of the Duke Lacrosse scandal, a lot of DAs are probably a little more wary of pressing charges (esp. where the victim is reluctant to cooperate fully) than they should be.

Those in a position to do something may have been told that the girl didn't press charges, it was a murky situation to begin with, and Gibbons had been disciplined. I don't think you can condemn them for not knowing this needed to be re-investigated, and the facts may not have been quite that murky after all.

in the end, justice was done, and if Gibbons hadn't been booted now, no one would be talking about it anyway, so good for us.

 

[Michchamp]

Well, the victim was seemingly pushing for this to go forward. Douglas Smith was seemingly pushing in 2011.

I don't quite understand the differentiation in jurisdiction and powers between AA Police and University Police, but I heard on the radio this morning that she decided not to pursue criminal charges (which would seem different than the local police simply not finding enough evidence to charge) but instead wanted this investigation pursued within the university. Then we understand that the university had policies in place precluding them to investigate, and they chose not to modify that policy until late 2013.

It's all still coming together, and I look forward to it all making sense at some point. But right now, the answers to the questions seem to just create more questions.

I didn't know that. Someone at the University had better speak up.

I can imagine reasons why the university wouldn't conduct it's own investigation when the local police were or claimed to be that have nothing to do with trying to cover something up.

like I said... glad they did the right thing in the end, and have taken steps to correct this mess. It pretty much had been swept under the rug; kudos to those in the administration that swept it back out.

 

[Sbee]

There's no point disusing this with Sbee. S/he doesn't even think of us as decent human beings and s/he interprets what we post in the worst possible way. See post #35. S/he doesn't even see that we have a problem with this and thinks we have to imagine how we'd feel if this had happened at an SEC school.

Say what you want, I just think it's horrible that it took 4 years to discipline him about this matter.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Say what you want, I just think it's horrible that it took 4 years to discipline him about this matter.

No. You don't just think that. If that's all you thought, there'd be no issue and you'd see that we agree with you on that point. The problem, like I said, is that you are a horribly biased person that does not even make the slightest allowance that fans of your school's rival might be regular, decent people. You can't read it when it's right there in front of you. You assume the worst of us, contrary to the words right there in front of you. I'm doing you credit if I call you a troll. The alternative is worse.

 

[Michchamp]

Say what you want, I just think it's horrible that it took 4 years to discipline him about this matter.

all of us agree, and have agreed going all the way back to the thread on the topic last summer. and one guy who appeared not to was just playing devil's advocate and said as much, and the other guy who appeared not to only discounted the idea that vaginal tearing can prove that intercourse took place.

punch yourself in the bean bag.

 

[RedeemerKid]

I also think Hoke's decision to keep Gibbons out of the Bowl Game might've been linked to this

Considering Gibbons was booted completely from the university more than a week (12/20) before the bowl game (12/28), I'd say there's a definite correlation. Can't play for the university if you are no longer a student.

 

[thewolverines24]

most of us agree, and have agreed going all the way back to the thread on the topic last summer.

take it up with Hungry and Wolverines24 by private message, or in an AOL chat room.

Where am I disagreeing? I played devil's advocate in the original thread, said that was what I was doing, so we didn't have a board of people convicting Gibbons when they have no idea exactly what happened. I said Gibbons definitely screwed up and should not have done anything with a girl that drunk. I even gave a personal example of when I was in a similar situation and just tucked the girl into bed and went home.