Today's example of Christians behaving badly

[Gulo Blue]

There are critical truths that only the Catholic Church teaches, authorized by God and reinforced by scripture and His ?One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.? It?s in the Creed that I state out loud at Mass every Sunday.

Truths that are not negotiable. I expect that you know what they are. Other Christian churches reject these truths, or mitigate them somehow. That makes them wrong.

Have you read the Catechism? Every Catholic should have a copy of it.

Sure. I just don't think that's what Tinsel is talking about - or the guy he was paraphrasing.

Or me when I responded.

 

[byco42]

Sure. I just don't think that's what Tinsel is talking about - or the guy he was paraphrasing.

Or me when I responded.

?Sure? ? you?ve read the Catechism? Or ?sure? to my response?

 

[Gulo Blue]

?Sure? ? you?ve read the Catechism? Or ?sure? to my response?

Sure to your response. I've read some of the Catechism.

 

[byco42]

Sure to your response. I've read some of the Catechism.

Ok. It?s what I?ve been talking about since the beginning of this discussion ? the One, True, Church and its teaching.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Ok. It?s what I?ve been talking about since the beginning of this discussion ? the One, True, Church and its teaching.

When you do that, I think you 'No True Scotsman" yourself out of any practical discussion. If a Catholic doesn't count by Confirmation, and there's this bar you need to get over that takes a lifetime of study and reflection, then you're talking past anyone that wants to discuss anything about Catholics.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Even the Catechism isn't frozen in time.

 

[byco42]

When you do that, I think you 'No True Scotsman" yourself out of any practical discussion. If a Catholic doesn't count by Confirmation, and there's this bar you need to get over that takes a lifetime of study and reflection, then you're talking past anyone that wants to discuss anything about Catholics.

By ?that? you mean proclaim the Catholic Church as the one that is ?holy, catholic, and apostolic?? That?s what every Confirmation candidate does by agreeing to be accepted into the Church!

My ultimate concern is the salvation of souls, not consensus. And the Church is the one earthly institution that warrants a lifetime of study and reflection. We are called to love and serve God. We cannot do that 99% of the way or the time. And we cannot love a God we do not know, nor serve a God we do not love.

And to love God is to obey Him.

 

[byco42]

Even the Catechism isn't frozen in time.

Time is a human invention. God and his Truth exists outside of it.

 

[Gulo Blue]

By ?that? you mean proclaim the Catholic Church as the one that is ?holy, catholic, and apostolic?? That?s what every Confirmation candidate does by agreeing to be accepted into the Church!

My ultimate concern is the salvation of souls, not consensus. And the Church is the one earthly institution that warrants a lifetime of study and reflection. We are called to love and serve God. We cannot do that 99% of the way or the time. And we cannot love a God we do not know, nor serve a God we do not love.

And to love God is to obey Him.

No, when you limit the Catholic Church to the very narrow set of people that are aware of and understand exactly what's in the Catechism. Instead, if you include everyone that proclaims the Catholic Church to be the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church, you cast a much wider net with people that aren't saying the same things on all topics. I guess I don't know where your friend is coming from on this issue, but the whole all-or-nothing logic requirement seems like man's way of thinking and putting requirements on other men and not a good faith effort to understand truth with the tools available.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Time is a human invention. God and his Truth exists outside of it.

But we live in it. And most Catholics lived and probably will live with a different Catechism than ours.

 

[byco42]

No, when you limit the Catholic Church to the very narrow set of people that are aware of and understand exactly what's in the Catechism.

Help me understand where and how I am doing this. All I did was recommend that all Catholics should read the Catechism.

Instead, if you include everyone that proclaims the Catholic Church to be the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church, you cast a much wider net with people that aren't saying the same things on all topics.

Ok. But by proclamation Catholics are also proclaiming that that they believe and abide in all that the Church teaches. It would be prudent to know what it teaches, then.

I guess I don't know where your friend is coming from on this issue, but the whole all-or-nothing logic requirement seems like man's way of thinking and putting requirements on other men and not a good faith effort to understand truth with the tools available.

There are tens of thousands of Protestant sects in the United States, and a few more will probably come into being before the New Year. And a few will dissolve. On what infallible Truth do these any of these churches base their existence? And which do they ignore or even refute?

There is one God, one Son, One Cross, One Resurrection, One True Church that adheres to the Truth proclaimed by God Himself, to us.

 

[Michchamp]

if you guys are going to keep this discussion in the "Christians Behaving Badly" thread, one of you has to declare the other a heretic and threaten them for disagreeing about what is true and what is relative

 

[Gulo Blue]

Ok. But by proclamation Catholics are also proclaiming that that they believe and abide in all that the Church teaches. It would be prudent to know what it teaches, then.

I don't think this part is right - or not right, but useful, I guess. A person may technically say they agree with something they are unaware of, but who does and doesn't check that box without understanding would only be of interest to men on Earth making arguments and classifying people - maybe. When the language addressing capitol punishment changed in the Catechism, 1.3 billion minds didn't suddenly change with it. Clicking or signing 'I agree' on a legal document can have legal consequences on Earth, but I don't think a person develops spiritually by the same mechanism.

 

[Gulo Blue]

if you guys are going to keep this discussion in the "Christians Behaving Badly" thread, one of you has to declare the other a heretic and threaten them for disagreeing about what is true and what is relative

Hmmm.....or we could team up and declare you the heretic.

 

[Michchamp]

Hmmm.....or we could team up and declare you the heretic.

I am aware of that possibility, but historically once Christians start fighting among themselves, they tend to keep fighting among themselves until the job is done.

 

[byco42]

But we live in it. And most Catholics lived and probably will live with a different Catechism than ours.

Doesn?t matter whether or not we live in it; God doesn?t, nor does His Truth. He is unchanging and unchangeable.

If we alter the CCC (i.e. death penalty) it?s in the effort to refine our understanding of His Truth and to strive for complete holiness through virtue.

 

[byco42]

I don't think this part is right - or not right, but useful, I guess. A person may technically say they agree with something they are unaware of, but who does and doesn't check that box without understanding would only be of interest to men on Earth making arguments and classifying people - maybe. When the language addressing capitol punishment changed in the Catechism, 1.3 billion minds didn't suddenly change with it. Clicking or signing 'I agree' on a legal document can have legal consequences on Earth, but I don't think a person develops spiritually by the same mechanism.

Knowing and learning what the Church teaches is not some impossible endeavor ? and all the assets we need are easily available. It?s incumbent on all Catholics to make this a priority, IMO.

As I said: ?to know and love God and serve Him? is our obligation as Catholics.

Page 7 of the CCC. Link

 

[Gulo Blue]

Doesn?t matter whether or not we live in it; God doesn?t, nor does His Truth. He is unchanging and unchangeable.

If we alter the CCC (i.e. death penalty) it?s in the effort to refine our understanding of His Truth and to strive for complete holiness through virtue.

But when people make their all or nothing arguments about the validity of one religion or another or none, that's about the institutions that exist in time. There are no 2 unchanging truths existing out of time to compare.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Hmmm.....or we could team up and declare you the heretic.

Not sure.

Dictionary dot com definition of heretic begins the description with ?a professed believer??

So there?s that, right out of the box?

 

[Gulo Blue]

Knowing and learning what the Church teaches is not some impossible endeavor ? and all the assets we need are easily available. It?s incumbent on all Catholics to make this a priority, IMO.

As I said: ?to know and love God and serve Him? is our obligation as Catholics.

Page 7 of the CCC. Link

Ballpark, how many Catholics do you think live in the world today then?