9th Circuit Overturns Prop 8 In California

[redandguilty]

Between those books and Logicomix, I sort of feel that actual life experience has something in common with reading the Lord of the Rings. When you read Tolkien, you are led to believe that what appears on the pages only scratches the surface of the depth of detail that actually exists. The two Hawking books and Logicomix makes me think that there's a mountain of existential knowledge that I am very nearly completely unaware of. Can you imagine 300 pages being described as proving that 1+1=2 without paradoxes...then can you imagine the author finding that the proof did give rise to a paradox?

 

[redandguilty]

So you are reading (have read) Stephen Hawking yet have no knowledge about Isaac Newton. You've got to be trolling me.

At least Smayschmouth can be forgiven, he was busy being taught to hide from atom bombs under his school desk.

LOL

Newton's face is on the cover. His name is the 16th word in the introduction. Chapter 4: Sir Issac Newton.

You been trolled.

 

[cheeno]

So you are reading (have read) Stephen Hawking yet have no knowledge about Isaac Newton. You've got to be trolling me.

At least Smayschmouth can be forgiven, he was busy being taught to hide from atom bombs under his school desk.

LOL

Newton's face is on the cover. His name is the 16th word in the introduction. Chapter 4: Sir Issac Newton.

You been trolled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r76H62tzrg

 

[Michchamp]

Regarding the actual topic at hand, do we actually have scientific evidence that preference is not a choice?

other species have been observed doing it.

 

[Thumb]

As far as politics goes, though, doesn't this issue, like so many others come done to money?

Morally, everyone has the right to make their own decision about marriage. No question there.

If you want know which side most political groups come down on, though, just ask yourself who stands to gain the most if gay marriage is somehow not allowed, or sanctioned in every state? Health insurance companies, divorce lawyers, probate attorney's, and the groups of people who determine tax laws, and all of their enormous lobbying arms are really the one's who are going to decide what really happens on this issue.

We can applaud the 9th circuit, or damn them to hell for our own religious bias, but in the end it is the side with the most money, or the most money at stake who will win.

Who is right and wrong? Message board fodder that will be forgotten tomorrow.

That's like arguing that the Civil Rights Movement was only started because someone wanted to profit from it.

Sometimes people do whats right, because it just the right thing to do, if you can't at least accept this ideal, then how can you have any hope for what we call humanity?

I believe American Gay/Lesbian people should have the same rights as any US citizen, I don't believe this because I have an agenda, because it really does not involve me at all, except for I take the word "FREEDOM" more seriously I guess.

 

[KAWDUP]

. . . not to get into the whole nature vs. nurture thing, but isn't animal instinct a bit different than being gay and everything that that entails?

You can say the attraction to the same sex is on par with that because at least instinct plays a role in that, but are you defining the entire phenomenon of being homosexual with just an attraction to the same sex? I, as is probably obvious, do not define homesexuality in such simplistic terms.

How does an animal have sexual desire? If you answer - because they go into heat and that is the same thing. - 5 points (Oh God, now I'm going to have hear about "who the hell am I to assign points to someones belief" - Good grief).

Anyway, in case you missed my point, "other species doing it" is proof of very little. Not that I am saying it is a choice (don't put words into my mouth), just that the science of it is nowhere near that simple and is open to some arguments to the contrary.

 

[redandguilty]

Regarding the actual topic at hand, do we actually have scientific evidence that preference is not a choice?

other species have been observed doing it.

So, the implication is the other species do not make choices?

 

[byco42]

So you are reading (have read) Stephen Hawking yet have no knowledge about Isaac Newton. You've got to be trolling me.

At least Smayschmouth can be forgiven, he was busy being taught to hide from atom bombs under his school desk.

Them desks was nu-clear proof.

Signed, Major Kong

 

[byco42]

TinselWolverine[/color]]

I don't give a fig about Isaac Newton. Anyone could have had an apple clunk of his head.

I thought that was William Tell's kid.

No, no, no. William Tell's kid was shot through the eye with an arrow. Little known fact.

 

[redandguilty]

Animals are into interspecies and stuffed animals too. I didn't mean to imply that the science is the end-all to the laws we write for people. But digging into the nature vs. nurture is exactly what I was asking about.

 

[Michchamp]

okay, and humans operate on instinct too... get this: we are animals.

the fact that this behavior exists across a broad array of species is proof to me that it's not some sort of unnatural behavior.

also the idea that it's a choice is absurd. who in their right mind would choose to be part of a much abused minority group? do you think being physically and mentally abused, disowned by family, forced to live under a legal system that doesn't recognize your rights to be marry your partner is a lark?

 

[Thumb]

The idea that being gay is a choice was invented by the the bible thumpers because they needed an out when people asked them to explain who god created gay people if he hates them.

And it's not like being gay is a just a popular fad either, throughout history people have engaged in homosexual relationships.

 

[tinselwolverine]

TinselWolverine[/color]]

I thought that was William Tell's kid.

No, no, no. William Tell's kid was shot through the eye with an arrow. Little known fact.

Maybe that's why Rossini wrote that overture to him.

Hiyo (or hiho) Silver...(not to be confused with "yippee - ki - yay...motherfucker...") Away!!!!

 

[redandguilty]

okay, and humans operate on instinct too... get this: we are animals.

the fact that this behavior exists across a broad array of species is proof to me that it's not some sort of unnatural behavior.

also the idea that it's a choice is absurd. who in their right mind would choose to be part of a much abused minority group? do you think being physically and mentally abused, disowned by family, forced to live under a legal system that doesn't recognize your rights to be marry your partner is a lark?

So...I can take this to mean that you're not actually talking about science then? That's fine. I'm not surprised if there isn't any. If there were known DNA markers for homosexuality today (not saying they don't exists, just that we don't know about them yet if they're there as far as I know...which isn't very far...for all I know we have found them and nobody in this thread knows about it), there would probably be another political grenade buried in the repercussions.

 

[tinselwolverine]

okay, and humans operate on instinct too... get this: we are animals.

the fact that this behavior exists across a broad array of species is proof to me that it's not some sort of unnatural behavior.

also the idea that it's a choice is absurd. who in their right mind would choose to be part of a much abused minority group? do you think being physically and mentally abused, disowned by family, forced to live under a legal system that doesn't recognize your rights to be marry your partner is a lark?

So...I can take this to mean that you're not actually talking about science then? That's fine. I'm not surprised if there isn't any. If there were known DNA markers for homosexuality today (not saying they don't exists, just that we don't know about them yet if they're there as far as I know...which isn't very far...for all I know we have found them and nobody in this thread knows about it), there would probably be another political grenade buried in the repercussions.

No, no, it's not a DNA thing, it's a portion of the brain thing...an overgrown portion of the brain is what is determinant in the predilection to be gay...and it actually grows into and shrinks the part of the brain (in the male brain anyway) that is designed to be disinterested in Judy Garland, musical theater and the proper placement of table settings....

 

[redandguilty]

TinselWolverine[/color]]
[quote="Red and Guilty":qi8bsfys]

So...I can take this to mean that you're not actually talking about science then? That's fine. I'm not surprised if there isn't any. If there were known DNA markers for homosexuality today (not saying they don't exists, just that we don't know about them yet if they're there as far as I know...which isn't very far...for all I know we have found them and nobody in this thread knows about it), there would probably be another political grenade buried in the repercussions.

No, no, it's not a DNA thing, it's a portion of the brain thing...an overgrown portion of the brain is what is determinant in the predilection to be gay...and it actually grows into and shrinks the part of the brain (in the male brain anyway) that is designed to be disinterested in Judy Garland, musical theater and the proper placement of table settings....[/quote:qi8bsfys]

LOL...I was about to post about the difference between cause and correlation 'til I got to the 2nd half of your post.

 

[tinselwolverine]

[quote="TinselWolverine":iv9ksmsa]

No, no, it's not a DNA thing, it's a portion of the brain thing...an overgrown portion of the brain is what is determinant in the predilection to be gay...and it actually grows into and shrinks the part of the brain (in the male brain anyway) that is designed to be disinterested in Judy Garland, musical theater and the proper placement of table settings....

LOL...I was about to post about the difference between cause and correlation 'til I got to the 2nd half of your post.[/quote:iv9ksmsa]

Thank you, Mr. Smartest Guy on the Board.

This demonstrates the importance of reading every single word I write.

 

[KAWDUP]

As far as politics goes, though, doesn't this issue, like so many others come done to money?

Morally, everyone has the right to make their own decision about marriage. No question there.

If you want know which side most political groups come down on, though, just ask yourself who stands to gain the most if gay marriage is somehow not allowed, or sanctioned in every state? Health insurance companies, divorce lawyers, probate attorney's, and the groups of people who determine tax laws, and all of their enormous lobbying arms are really the one's who are going to decide what really happens on this issue.

We can applaud the 9th circuit, or damn them to hell for our own religious bias, but in the end it is the side with the most money, or the most money at stake who will win.

Who is right and wrong? Message board fodder that will be forgotten tomorrow.

That's like arguing that the Civil Rights Movement was only started because someone wanted to profit from it.

Sometimes people do whats right, because it just the right thing to do, if you can't at least accept this ideal, then how can you have any hope for what we call humanity?

I believe American Gay/Lesbian people should have the same rights as any US citizen, I don't believe this because I have an agenda, because it really does not involve me at all, except for I take the word "FREEDOM" more seriously I guess.

Well I don't believe the civil rights movement occurred in the last 20-30 years - that is the timeframe where the almighty buck started to play a much bigger role than what is actually right and wrong. We used to do hundreds of things because it was right. We respected each other, we took care our own poverty stricken much better than most government programs, and generally it sure seemed like most lawmakers did lots of things that were the right thing to do. Well we aren't living in those times now.

Let's start a tally right now for which major decisions that affect our daily lives are finally adjudicated in one way or another because that is just the right thing to do.

Come and talk to me if the tally ever reaches 5.

E.g. Do you think green energy, electric cars, and smart grid talk is because law makers want to do what is right?

I would say if you believe that the final decision in this situation with the 9th circuit court will finally end up where it does because that is what is right, I would have to say that that belief is somewhat naive.

You may disagree . . . but try just once to follow the money (. . . and I mean really do the research), and I think you may just start becoming more cynical too.

 

[KAWDUP]

okay, and humans operate on instinct too... get this: we are animals.

the fact that this behavior exists across a broad array of species is proof to me that it's not some sort of unnatural behavior.

also the idea that it's a choice is absurd. who in their right mind would choose to be part of a much abused minority group? do you think being physically and mentally abused, disowned by family, forced to live under a legal system that doesn't recognize your rights to be marry your partner is a lark?

Absolutely not, and that argument is much more compelling than "other animals do it".

I guess it wouldn't be prudent to suggest the difference is that humans have a soul, and animals do not, but just guessing by your other statements, you don't believe that either, so this argument is pretty much done.

Happy for you - it must make the world in which you live very comfortable for you.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Yes, obviously the 9th was heavily influenced by the Gay Wedding Planners lobby.