9th Circuit Overturns Prop 8 In California

[KAWDUP]

TinselWolverine[/color]]Yes, obviously the 9th was heavily influenced by the Gay Wedding Planners lobby.

Says you.

Link?








:*)

 

[tinselwolverine]

also the idea that it's a choice is absurd. who in their right mind would choose to be part of a much abused minority group? do you think being physically and mentally abused, disowned by family, forced to live under a legal system that doesn't recognize your rights to be marry your partner is a lark?

What are you talking about?

If I could have even only faked it I would own a quarter of Beverly Hills.

 

[Michchamp]

okay, and humans operate on instinct too... get this: we are animals.

the fact that this behavior exists across a broad array of species is proof to me that it's not some sort of unnatural behavior.

also the idea that it's a choice is absurd. who in their right mind would choose to be part of a much abused minority group? do you think being physically and mentally abused, disowned by family, forced to live under a legal system that doesn't recognize your rights to be marry your partner is a lark?

Absolutely not, and that argument is much more compelling than "other animals do it".

I guess it wouldn't be prudent to suggest the difference is that humans have a soul, and animals do not, but just guessing by your other statements, you don't believe that either, so this argument is pretty much done.

...

yes, you would be guessing correctly.

in the alternative though, I'd argue that if humans have souls, every other living thing does too.

that whole argument that humans have souls more or less because god decreed, but every other living thing didn't, just because... never made sense to me.

I don't view there being some bright line separating humans and the rest of the species on earth... the intelligence is a matter of degree, not of kind.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Some eastern religions/philosophies believe that all beings - including inanimate objects - are inbued with the life force or essence.

 

[Michchamp]

TinselWolverine[/color]]

also the idea that it's a choice is absurd. who in their right mind would choose to be part of a much abused minority group? do you think being physically and mentally abused, disowned by family, forced to live under a legal system that doesn't recognize your rights to be marry your partner is a lark?

What are you talking about?

If I could have even only faked it I would own a quarter of Beverly Hills.

well, yeah, that argument holds up better in rural areas than it does in certain cities.

still... the kid in a rural area bullied to death over his sexual preference (and this HAS happened)... doesn't seem like a "choice" to me.

 

[Michchamp]

also, even though I've reached that point, I'm generally okay with killing and eating animals... although the testing, the high-volume farms, the cruel conditions... yikes. We should stop that.

 

[byco42]

also, even though I've reached that point, I'm generally okay with killing and eating animals... although the testing, the high-volume farms, the cruel conditions... yikes. We should stop that.

I agree, but good luck getting Washington to agree to that. I just don't participate in the mass-market food-industry and 95 percent of my diet is plant-based.

 

[tinselwolverine]

also, even though I've reached that point, I'm generally okay with killing and eating animals... although the testing, the high-volume farms, the cruel conditions... yikes. We should stop that.

A key tenet of keeping Kosher that goes largely unrecognized is more humane treatment of the animals that provide sustenance.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I have a bumper sticker that says "My Dogs Eat Meat, and So do I."

 

[byco42]

I have a bumper sticker that says "I speed up to run over small animals."

 

[tinselwolverine]

I have a bumper sticker that says "I speed up to run over small animals."

That is so cool! I'm going to have to get one of those.

In the meantime, I found a Bible verse even MichChamp can agree on!

Proverb 12:10 The righteous person regards the life of his beast.

Now, this is one of the translations I found. There's more that follows, something about the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel, but that was kinda getting into the negative, I want to just focus on the positive, on the first part.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Here's a little more about the humanity aspect of kosher practices:

Judaism teaches that animals are part of God's creation and should be treated with compassion. Human beings must avoid tzar baalei chayim - causing pain to any living creature. God himself makes a covenant with the animals, just as he does with humanity.

The Talmud specifically instructs Jews not to cause pain to animals, and there are also several Bible stories which use kindness to animals as a demonstration of the virtues of leading Jewish figures.

Judaism also teaches that it is acceptable to harm or kill animals if that is the only way to fulfil an essential human need.

And this is straight from the BBC online, too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/jewishethics/animals_1.shtml

 

[redandguilty]

TinselWolverine[/color]]

What are you talking about?

If I could have even only faked it I would own a quarter of Beverly Hills.

well, yeah, that argument holds up better in rural areas than it does in certain cities.

still... the kid in a rural area bullied to death over his sexual preference (and this HAS happened)... doesn't seem like a "choice" to me.

Whether or not a choice is desirable has no weight in an argument of whether or not people would make that choice. Evaluate the argument outside of the context of homosexuality...it goes nowhere. People make terrible decisions all the time. The negative results of narcotics and bad credit and sedentary lifestyles are not evidence that people do not choose these things.

 

[redandguilty]

also, even though I've reached that point, I'm generally okay with killing and eating animals... although the testing, the high-volume farms, the cruel conditions... yikes. We should stop that.

I think I could eat lab-grown meat. Wound healing technologies have developed to the point where this is something that can be considered as a possible future technology.

 

[KAWDUP]

well, yeah, that argument holds up better in rural areas than it does in certain cities.

still... the kid in a rural area bullied to death over his sexual preference (and this HAS happened)... doesn't seem like a "choice" to me.

Whether or not a choice is desirable has no weight in an argument of whether or not people would make that choice. Evaluate the argument outside of the context of homosexuality...it goes nowhere. People make terrible decisions all the time. The negative results of narcotics and bad credit and sedentary lifestyles are not evidence that people do not choose these things.

. . . and has even less to do with the science of it.

 

[deathroh]

TinselWolverine[/color]]I've heard of On the Shoulders of Giants, but isn't that originally a quote from scientist guy?

I'm pretty sure it's an Oasis album.

 

[Michchamp]

In regards to the science of it, I think that while there has been no
"gay" gene discovered, a high correlation has been observed in
identical twins, leading to the asssumption it has some genettic
aspect. Red, maybe you could look that up in your science book.

 

[redandguilty]

In regards to the science of it, I think that while there has been no
"gay" gene discovered, a high correlation has been observed in
identical twins, leading to the asssumption it has some genettic
aspect. Red, maybe you could look that up in your science book.

Now we're talkin'! Just that there is evidence of a genetic link might not change the politics (thanks to epigenetics, things encoded in your DNA can be switched on or off and can even be influenced by your behavior) but I still think that's interesting. If the causes were understood and could be manipulated, then it would be a choice. I wonder how society would react to that.

 

[Michchamp]

In regards to the science of it, I think that while there has been no
"gay" gene discovered, a high correlation has been observed in
identical twins, leading to the asssumption it has some genettic
aspect. Red, maybe you could look that up in your science book.

Now we're talkin'! Just that there is evidence of a genetic link might not change the politics (thanks to epigenetics, things encoded in your DNA can be switched on or off and can even be influenced by your behavior) but I still think that's interesting. If the causes were understood and could be manipulated, then it would be a choice. I wonder how society would react to that.

also, did anyone see the movie Kinsey? when Alfred Kinsey did his sex research in the 50's, he found that sexuality wasn't a gay or straight proposition; there was a gray are between the two, and some people happily had relationships with members of both sexes.

some people clearly identified as gay, some as straight, some in between.

I think sexuality is mainly genetically determined, but that's not to say environment plays a role in it.

but regardless... still no reason to deny someone the equal protection of the laws; in this case, marriage laws.

 

[Thumb]

Now we're talkin'! Just that there is evidence of a genetic link might not change the politics (thanks to epigenetics, things encoded in your DNA can be switched on or off and can even be influenced by your behavior) but I still think that's interesting. If the causes were understood and could be manipulated, then it would be a choice. I wonder how society would react to that.

also, did anyone see the movie Kinsey? when Alfred Kinsey did his sex research in the 50's, he found that sexuality wasn't a gay or straight proposition; there was a gray are between the two, and some people happily had relationships with members of both sexes.

some people clearly identified as gay, some as straight, some in between.

I think sexuality is mainly genetically determined, but that's not to say environment plays a role in it.

but regardless... still no reason to deny someone the equal protection of the laws; in this case, marriage laws.

While I see the point you're trying to make, probably better to just use the research by Kinny as an example rather than bringing up Hollywood's version, which is usually about as accurate as Steven Hawking shooting free throws.