Anyone think Administration will lose votes

[redandguilty]

I'm obviously unstable, or have an axe to grind, or something wrong with me... because I questioned the dogma that was force fed to me for 18 years and came to the conclusion it was nothing more than a steaming pile of BS.

obviously I must have some screws loose because no one in their right mind could take an objective look at religion and question whether it's not the biggest scam fostered upon humanity in history... You'd have to be CRAZY to think that.

you'll see me adopting the opus dei schpiel and arguing the mass should be in latin in 20 years... bombing abortion clinics, etc. etc.

Who is this directed at? Don't tell me you're going to play the victim now. I'm not saying something is wrong with you for questioning dogma that I also question. I haven't said you have screws loose or that you're crazy or that you're unstable. I do think you have unrealistic expectations of perfection and I think that anyone demanding perfection from anyone else had better be a little more careful with the word hypocrite. I think you see the bad in the church and not the good, or rather, you think the good doesn't matter since it cannot live up to your expectation of perfection. Whoever it was that force fed you crap for 18 years...do you think they're good representative of the church? I bet I wouldn't, even though I'm not surprised they rose to positions where they could influence you. Maybe capitalism is BS because a lot of people listen to Rush Limbaugh and Glen Back too.

I think it's pretty reasonable to expect that with the huge number of Catholics that are out there, if we were capable of knowing and absorbing all the terrible things that have been done it would be soul crushing. I also think that's probably not too far from par for the course. The same thing would be true for other big groups: Americans, atheists, Michigan alumni. I'd like to believe that the groups that I associate with do better than average, but there's no valid measurement out there. Do buckeyes report the most minor violations to the NCAA because of self reporting policy differences or because they actually have that many more violations than your average SEC team?

 

[redandguilty]

Like the priest that didn't want to let be a godfather for my niece without without documentation from my current parish. The documentation isn't required or even asked for in general. Since I went to mass with the Duke student congregation (where I was married) there regular documentation didn't even exist. My family member vouching for the fact that I'm Catholic wasn't good enough. In the end, the guy accepted paperwork from a different parish altogether that I went to and asked. They paperwork he accepted was BS. The vouching he didn't accept was authentic. The requirement was made up in his head anyway. But it was all black and white and checking off the right boxes for this guy.

haha, you forged documentation of your catholicism to fool a priest?

you're going to burn for that one, young man!

I didn't forge anything. I was about to graduate so I was ready to join a new church anyway. Additionally, the priest of the Duke student group had moved on 2 months before this happened. But when the new church filled out the paperwork, they had no clue if I was coming back or not, so it really didn't prove anything that I got it filled out.

 

[redandguilty]

Like the priest that didn't want to let be a godfather for my niece without without documentation from my current parish. The documentation isn't required or even asked for in general. Since I went to mass with the Duke student congregation (where I was married) there regular documentation didn't even exist. My family member vouching for the fact that I'm Catholic wasn't good enough. In the end, the guy accepted paperwork from a different parish altogether that I went to and asked. They paperwork he accepted was BS. The vouching he didn't accept was authentic. The requirement was made up in his head anyway. But it was all black and white and checking off the right boxes for this guy.

That's not what I was expecting as an example. I was thinking more doctrinal and not administrative. But there are clear requirements to be eligible as a godparent, one of the first being that you have to be baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church and have a clear intent to live up to the responsibilities of a godparent. And the paperwork should be on file at the parish where the sacraments occurred.

Well that would have been the church of the priest back in Michigan giving me the difficult time. The other example that came to mind right away was the lady in charge of confirmation instruction. She pushed everyone through confirmation making sure they completed certain quizzes and tests and had attendance at certain classes when it was obvious that some of the people didn't want to be there at all. You recite the right prayers and give the right answers and she checks off the boxes and she's happy. The point of the whole thing, confirming that you want to be a Catholic of your own volition and not your parents', didn't enter into the equation at all. I don't blame people for being driven from Catholicism at all.

 

[byco42]

I don't recall anyone telling me that being a Roman Catholic was supposed to be easy. And my RCIA instruction was nothing like that.

 

[Michchamp]

what's RCIA?

I don't recall anyone telling me that the catholic religion might be made up. Like, they didn't first say, "Here, read Bertrand Russell's 'Why I am Not A Christian' and then pick up the Bible and tell me if that makes more sense. And then if it does, given the catholic church a lot of money and do what they tell you to on earth, even if they themselves don't practice what they preach."

that would've been more fair.

 

[redandguilty]

I don't recall anyone telling me that being a Roman Catholic was supposed to be easy. And my RCIA instruction was nothing like that.

I'm not saying it has to be easy or hard, but if you make people jump through hoops, it should be for the right reasons and the teachers should never lose sight of those reasons. Obviously, I haven't surveyed the nation, but I suspect that Confirmation is the last thing parents make their children do far more often than it's the first official thing the children do of their own volition. I was lucky with Confirmation. The lady I was talking about was in charge of about 20-30 people, and I was in an alternate class of 6 people that was a trial run for a guy that wanted to teach by taking people on tours of places of worship of other faiths and observing the differences to highlight what's different about us.

 

[redandguilty]

what's RCIA?

I don't recall anyone telling me that the catholic religion might be made up. Like, they didn't first say, "Here, read Bertrand Russell's 'Why I am Not A Christian' and then pick up the Bible and tell me if that makes more sense. And then if it does, given the catholic church a lot of money and do what they tell you to on earth, even if they themselves don't practice what they preach."

that would've been more fair.

I read this after the previous response. And no, we didn't look at Russel and even if we did, the lady I've been talking about shut down my class after one year.

 

[Michchamp]

red are you even watching the game? WTF is wrong with you?

 

[redandguilty]

red are you even watching the game? WTF is wrong with you?

Flipping back and forth/wife is watching American Pickers. I have a cycle: clean fishtask-> check on game-> check on message board.

 

[byco42]

RCIA: Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults

I don't recall anyone telling me that the catholic religion might be made up. Like, they didn't first say, "Here, read Bertrand Russell's 'Why I am Not A Christian' and then pick up the Bible and tell me if that makes more sense. And then if it does, given the catholic church a lot of money and do what they tell you to on earth, even if they themselves don't practice what they preach.

that would've been more fair.

You are working through your disappointment. Once you recognize that anything that involves people is flawed, because it involves people, perhaps you'll see the essence of things in regards to the church.

The Vatican is in the tall grass presently, but that does not affect my beliefs; they are stronger than that.

You are not the first catholic-educated student to reject what you were taught, and you won't be the last.

 

[KAWDUP]

Not super upset at the hijack of this thread, just that Champ still somehow thinks this is about the Catholic church and because it isn't perfect (no religion is), that somehow means they shouldn't be afforded the privileges guaranteed by the Constitution.

I thought the founding fathers were pretty clear on this issue, but maybe he can make a case that due to the sins of men and women that are part of that religion, it doesn't apply, but I sure haven't seen it yet.

Also I watched the whole thing. Go Blue!!

 

[Michchamp]

KAWDUP, the law is clear, and the law has been consistently applied to similar matters before this. that much is settled.

you and the church don't agree with the law, and you want it changed to allow the catholic church to deny lay employees access to birth control via the government-mandated health insurance they must provide their employees.

now... will it cost the administration votes? It might. however, in light of the pushback after the compromise, it might also galvanize some opposition to the church here... which, given their stance opposite to the administration, could only really help the administration in November.

Hope it does. Because underlying the political battle, the church's policy toward birth control is simply fucking idiotic, a relic of a past when there weren't almost 7 billion people in the world, and should be dropped. People need to wake the fuck up and start thinking about this shit logically instead of listening to a alleged words of a man in the sky, written down thousands of years ago, and revised and re-translated countless times since then by organizations that always seem more concerned with their earthly power than they do with following the teachings of the actual founder of their religion!

phew.

 

[byco42]

Hey, you're one of the 7 billion, MC02, making you as big a liability as the other 6,999,999,999 people in the world. So I trust that you are going to do your part in minimizing the problem, as you see it, by never procreating.

And if you have, shame on you.

 

[KAWDUP]

I said it before, and it doesn't seem to make a difference, so I'll just say it again - until it happens that something guaranteed by the Constitution is taken from you, then we will see how much you complain about it.

You can quote me law all you want, but just because you don't believe in any religion does not mean that freedom of religion is not guaranteed any more. There is no chance that normally liberal Democrat and Obama supporters would raise such a stink for political gain. Their conscience is telling them the enforcement of that rule is just plain wrong. Do you at least understand that part?

If not, we need to back up and analyze what the real issue is again. It is not about contraception, who pays for it, or the big bad Catholic church. Those things upset you, I can see that, but the issue has always been the government telling a church, any church, what they can and can not do.

. . . and we're not talking about something that would normally fall under the purview of the federal government. Keep that in mind when responding as things that do belong to the federal government should stay there. This issue is NOT one of them.

 

[Michchamp]

this isn't about reproductive rights. it's a matter of common sense and a realistic approach toward birth control

 

[KAWDUP]

this isn't about reproductive rights. it's a matter of common sense and a realistic approach toward birth control

No it isn't. That would be why you are still arguing, but really isn't the issue.

 

[Michchamp]

this isn't about reproductive rights. it's a matter of common sense and a realistic approach toward birth control

No it isn't. That would be why you are still arguing, but really isn't the issue.

that was in reply to byco's comment. I'm not saying people should be prevented from having kids if they want to, just that people who are not planning on having kids should have access to birth control.

 

[Michchamp]

If not, we need to back up and analyze what the real issue is again. It is not about contraception, who pays for it, or the big bad Catholic church. Those things upset you, I can see that, but the issue has always been the government telling a church, any church, what they can and can not do.

. . .

No, that's not the issue. The government can tell a church what it can and can't do when it's operating outside the bounds of the actual practice of its religion.

if the church opened a bank and started lending to consumers, they'd have to obey the banking laws.

if the church decided to run a railroad, they'd be subject to the same transportation laws as any other railroad.

they operate a hospital? they have to obey healthcare laws, patient privacy laws, and their employees are subject to the state and federal labor laws.

if they don't like it, they should get out of the hospital business.

the government's not telling any religion what it can and cannot do; it's crafting legislation to govern and benefit it's citizens. if the church has a problem with a particular piece of legislation that applies to everyone equally, tough. The church can take a hike.

opposing birth control is idiotic to begin with, but that's a separate issue.

 

[redandguilty]

No it isn't. That would be why you are still arguing, but really isn't the issue.

that was in reply to byco's comment. I'm not saying people should be prevented from having kids if they want to, just that people who are not planning on having kids should have access to birth control.

The church isn't stopping anyone from getting birth control. They just don't want to be a part of it.

 

[Mitchrapp]

that was in reply to byco's comment. I'm not saying people should be prevented from having kids if they want to, just that people who are not planning on having kids should have access to birth control.

The church isn't stopping anyone from getting birth control. They just don't want to be a part of it.

Correct.