CIA torture report

[Michchamp]

I guess... I don't have a problem with someone saying "I watched the movie and enjoyed it because I like movies and stuff, but I understand the thing about torture leading to "intel" (tough CIA guys in the movies call it "intel") was bogus, and I think our government should never do that in any situation, and think there should've been investigations and consequences for the people who came up with this policy."

And thumb, I know you're not saying exactly that, but only sort of saying that, but it's another rhetorical flourish on my part.

unfortunately, a lot of people didn't see it that way. Or if they did, still went out of their way to bash the people on the left who criticized the movie, saying "Hey it's just a movie!" It was not "just a movie." And the way the director and writer tried to spin their way out of the criticism was illogical and often contradictory.

Same thing goes for "The Hurt Locker" which I did see, thought was idiotic, and wondered how anyone in their right mind could've thought was a realistic portrayal of what Iraq was like, instead of a recruitment poster for testosterone junkies.

 

[Michchamp]

I wasn't talking about you baiting me in this thread particularly. In this case, I baited you with my first post - and you took it. It was a joke aimed at pointing out once again how you do the same things you whine about concerning those dastardly right wing zealots. You once again place everyone who might disagree with you in that same group.

It wouldn't matter one scintilla, if people acknowledged that torture is wrong in every way, you would jump on them if there was any qualification of that view, or disagreement with some of the "facts" presented.

You can continue to do that (doing whatever you want), and I can continue to call you on it (doing whatever I want).

See how that works? :*)

oh, geez, I got played... you really know your stuff...

say what did you think of the movie? Guessing your opinion is probably closer to what tsmith thought of the movie, which is why you're not sharing that here, instead of just flinging poo.

 

[KAWDUP]

I know people who claim the exact same things about the post apocalyptic movies that are out there, that they are just propaganda against the "great 'ol US of A". I think they are out in left field just as much as you'all are about these movies being some dark right wing conspiracy.

I suppose movies with a lot of sex are corrupting our youth into becoming active way too early?

I suppose violent movies are further corrupting weak minds into picking up a gun and shooting up a theater?

You view it as more than simple fiction, due to your own idiosyncrasies and fears.

No but you go ahead and attack them, and throw all those film makers out of the academy, if that will make you feel better, but you certainly won't end any of that which you fight against.

 

[KAWDUP]

oh, geez, I got played... you really know your stuff...

say what did you think of the movie? Guessing your opinion is probably closer to what tsmith thought of the movie, which is why you're not sharing that here, instead of just flinging poo.

Wrong again, Kemosabi, I have Thumb's opinion - it was entertainment. Movies can have a right or left leaning bent, but I can still consider them pretty good movies.

You want to know one of my favorite movies, so that you can go "shit" on it or "fling poo" if you like - American President, with Annette Bening, and Michael Douglas. Lot's of gun control, and making Republicans look like the idiots you portray them to be, but a damn fine movie, with some of the best dialog around. The acting by all of the actors in the movie was outstanding.

 

[Michchamp]

Wrong again, Kemosabi, I have Thumb's opinion - it was entertainment. Movies can have a right or left leaning bent, but I can still consider them pretty good movies.

entertainment... that just happened to be made with government direction... and told the story the government wanted to be told, not the true story of what lead to OBL, which had nothing to do with torture. And by some accounts (not the CIA's or Bush Adminstration's of course) torture lead to false confessions and red herrings (notably from Khalid Sheikh Mohammad) that actually lead AWAY from Bin Laden.

You want to know one of my favorite movies, bla bla bla, nothing to do with what we're talking about...

I don't. Sorry.

 

[KAWDUP]

BTW - did you delete a post? It was there about how I still didn't give my opinion of that movie, then it was gone.

Mods?

My opinion - I enjoyed "24", so it wasn't as good as that, but I didn't think it was a bad story. Dialog needed a bit of work, but it was acceptable. I should have waited for it to come out on cable, but you can't have "The Desolation of Smaug", or "Divergence" in every movie that gets released.

 

[KAWDUP]

entertainment... that just happened to be made with government direction... and told the story the government wanted to be told, not the true story of what lead to OBL, which had nothing to do with torture. And by some accounts (not the CIA's or Bush Adminstration's of course) torture lead to false confessions and red herrings (notably from Khalid Sheikh Mohammad) that actually lead AWAY from Bin Laden.

I don't. Sorry.

Figures - continue being a dick all you want (BTW that is first name I called you in the entire thread - maybe you can point to another one?). How many movies do you think are made with government direction? Got a link for that, or just pissed off when one doesn't go along with your opinions?

 

[Michchamp]

BTW - did you delete a post? It was there about how I still didn't give my opinion of that movie, then it was gone.

Mods?

My opinion - I enjoyed "24", so it wasn't as good as that, but I didn't think it was a bad story. Dialog needed a bit of work, but it was acceptable. I should have waited for it to come out on cable, but you can't have "The Desolation of Smaug", or "Divergence" in every movie that gets released.

yes, I deleted a post. it said, you still haven't given your opinion of the movie after you posted that one, and then in the meantime, your opinion of the movie showed up.

OOOH!!! You caught me being dishonest or something. Better tell the mods.

 

[KAWDUP]

yes, I deleted a post. it said, you still haven't given your opinion of the movie after you posted that one, and then in the meantime, your opinion of the movie showed up.

OOOH!!! You caught me being dishonest or something. Better tell the mods.

Oh shut up - I was just asking. It appeared then disappeared.

"In the meantime" I was answering your mentioned deficiency, giving you my opinion - boy you sure seem butt hurt over something - get up on the wrong side of the bed?.

 

[deathroh]

why, michchamp, why?

 

[zyxt9]

entertainment... that just happened to be made with government direction... and told the story the government wanted to be told, not the true story of what lead to OBL, which had nothing to do with torture. And by some accounts (not the CIA's or Bush Adminstration's of course) torture lead to false confessions and red herrings (notably from Khalid Sheikh Mohammad) that actually lead AWAY from Bin Laden.

I don't. Sorry.

Hold up, rewind...

"told the story the government wanted to be told" and then bashing the Bush Administration for the movie...

did you forget the movie was made during the Obama Administration????????? so the story the big bad government told was the one approved by Obama, not Bush. yet you blame Bush for the info in the movie???????? I thought the fact OBL was taken out under Obama was a point of satisfaction amongst Libs?

furthermore, I took the waterboarding events in the film to depict the Hollywoodized historical accounts of the Maya character, that she witnessed the waterboarding of several captured terrorists during the long journey of trying to gather info on OBL. they didn't show anyone being waterboarded who immediately said, "oh, you wanted info!?!...here it is!!!"

you're talking about years worth of material that had to be condensed down to about 90 minutes. did Hollywood take liberties? OF COURSE THEY DID! did you watch Band of Brothers? did you then read the book? OMG, it wasn't 100% accurate on screen???!!!??? neither was Patton, and Platoon was a complete work of fiction even though I'm sure it had elements of truth as the more truth there is in a fictional story the better it is (generally).

do you honestly believe the CIA and the OBAMA Administration provided all their data to Hollywood? do you honestly believe Hollywood didn't look at the info the CIA and Obama approved and edit the crap out of it to make it fit their storyboard better???

and finally, at the time waterboarding was considered an acceptable form of torture. now, one can easily say torture should NEVER be accepted in any form, but if that was true then we wouldn't have to be tortured by listening to such nonsense as blaming Bush for Zero Dark Thirty inaccuracies.

 

[zyxt9]

Because of this thread, I have added Zero Dark Thirty to my Netflix queue....

it is an okay film, IMO. obviously don't take it as gospel truth, but it was pretty solid with how they portrayed Seal Team 6's attack on the compound. no, no one should ever claim that is exactly how it went down, but it gives a good enough basis to grasp the course of events that evening.

just be forewarned that Hollywood took some liberties and therefore is not 100% accurate in terms of what happened from beginning to end. some apparently believe Hollywood is able to take a decade and squish it down into 90 minutes in a way that every bit of context and info is accurate.

oops, sorry...apparently it was 157 minutes. that extra 67 minutes should have definitely made everything 100% accurate! fucking Hollywood...I suppose next people are going to tell me that Argo wasn't 100% accurate either. What? NOOOO!!!! you mean, Argo wasn't either!!!!!!! damn it! that must be Bush's fault!!!!!! Huh? That was the Carter Administration and the film was made during the Obama Administration? Fuck you, it's still Bush's fault!!!!!!!!

 

[zyxt9]

and no, for the record, I don't hold Obama responsible for the inaccuracies either. pretty sure he has had more important things to do than micromanage a fucking script.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Because of this thread, I have added Zero Dark Thirty to my Netflix queue.

Pay attention to how they link the interrogations to finding Bin Laden.

 

[Gulo Blue]

and no, for the record, I don't hold Obama responsible for the inaccuracies either. pretty sure he has had more important things to do than micromanage a fucking script.

Yeah, that would be micromanaging. He doesn't need to give instruction quite that detailed.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/president-obama-hollywood-meeting-253151

Before he left Los Angeles for San Francisco on Tuesday, President Barack Obama stopped for an undisclosed meeting with some of the entertainment industry's high-level executives, as well as talent representatives with access to the industry's top stars and musical acts, The Hollywood Reporter has learned.

...

The president appeared for about 25 to 30 minutes, telling the group that his campaign would be tough and he needed their help to engage the Hollywood community in particular and the general public at large.

 

[Michchamp]

Hold up, rewind...

"told the story the government wanted to be told" and then bashing the Bush Administration for the movie...

did you forget the movie was made during the Obama Administration????????? so the story the big bad government told was the one approved by Obama, not Bush. yet you blame Bush for the info in the movie???????? I thought the fact OBL was taken out under Obama was a point of satisfaction amongst Libs?

furthermore, I took the waterboarding events in the film to depict the Hollywoodized historical accounts of the Maya character, that she witnessed the waterboarding of several captured terrorists during the long journey of trying to gather info on OBL. they didn't show anyone being waterboarded who immediately said, "oh, you wanted info!?!...here it is!!!"

you're talking about years worth of material that had to be condensed down to about 90 minutes. did Hollywood take liberties? OF COURSE THEY DID! did you watch Band of Brothers? did you then read the book? OMG, it wasn't 100% accurate on screen???!!!??? neither was Patton, and Platoon was a complete work of fiction even though I'm sure it had elements of truth as the more truth there is in a fictional story the better it is (generally).

do you honestly believe the CIA and the OBAMA Administration provided all their data to Hollywood? do you honestly believe Hollywood didn't look at the info the CIA and Obama approved and edit the crap out of it to make it fit their storyboard better???

No, and I wasn't saying any of those things, dingbat.

and finally, at the time waterboarding was considered an acceptable form of torture. now, one can easily say torture should NEVER be accepted in any form, but if that was true then we wouldn't have to be tortured by listening to such nonsense as blaming Bush for Zero Dark Thirty inaccuracies.

waterboarding was considered an acceptable form of torture, based on some memos from hack attorneys in the Bush OLC (John Yoo, Jay Bybee and maybe one or two others). Better attorneys made a serious effort at subjecting them to discipline for the memos (summary here.) Note, for the record, Holder, OBAMA's AG,helped kill this. I am not giving Obama a pass for this, and I've consistently criticised his administration over their conduct here. If you think this is a simply democrats/republicans issue, you're wrong, though the members of the Bush Administration deserve particular scorn for being the ones to craft this regime and ram it through.

 

[zyxt9]

No, and I wasn't saying any of those things, dingbat.


waterboarding was considered an acceptable form of torture, based on some memos from hack attorneys in the Bush OLC (John Yoo, Jay Bybee and maybe one or two others). Better attorneys made a serious effort at subjecting them to discipline for the memos (summary here.) Note, for the record, Holder, OBAMA's AG,helped kill this. I am not giving Obama a pass for this, and I've consistently criticised his administration over their conduct here. If you think this is a simply democrats/republicans issue, you're wrong, though the members of the Bush Administration deserve particular scorn for being the ones to craft this regime and ram it through.

Sorry, I obviously must have missed all those criticisms of the Obama Administration.

I don't personally believe it is a D v R thing, but I believe there are those who work hard at making this, and so many other things, into one. And I do NOT believe torture yields very good info. Just not sure why this thread was even created in the first place, to be honest. What purpose does it serve, other than to bash on Bush in yet another thread? I was merely pointing out the fallacy in the arguments above, purposeful or not, that Bush was somehow responsible for the inaccuracies in Zero Dark Thirty, or that the US government (especially Bush and his Administration) was so controlling in the making of the movie. Did the government have influence??? Naturally, but the degree to which it was influenced is highly overblown by posts in this thread don't you think?

And there have already been numerous threads on the entire waterboarding issue. Didn't we kill that topic long ago??? Waterboarding is Bad...maybe say that in a "Bush" voice if it makes you feel better.

 

[Thumb]

That's not true. These movies made with pentagon (or in this case CIA) cooperation aren't just movies. I can draw some clear distinctions between this and The usual Hollywood fare or even war movies like Platoon or Patton that aren't made with oversight from the potomac

That was my own person opinion, so I don't see how anyone can tell me it's not true.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Hold up, rewind...

"told the story the government wanted to be told" and then bashing the Bush Administration for the movie...

did you forget the movie was made during the Obama Administration...

Now come one...

The CIA delegation that controls Hollywood propaganda is a non-partisan entity that pursues its own agenda regardless of whichever political party happens to hold whatever offices at a given time...

Everybody knows this.

 

[Thumb]

What's sad is a thread about the torture report have devolved into a 4 page argument about a few relatively low budget action movies.