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Don't Quote Churchill

Monster said:
- "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" - This quote would be repeated by every conservative man and woman on a weekly basis if Reagan had said it. Hell, it might have even been included in the Pledge of Allegiance.
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Good quote, but not his best quote.

"I want to express my thanks to you, as a graduate of the Michigan of the East, Harvard University."
 
while MLK had flaws too, what he overcame and accomplished far exceeded both JFK and LBJ. it can be argued that neither JFK nor LBJ would have even started to consider legislating Civil Rights if not for the work of MLK and the societal pressure he applied to the JFK administration...but that's just my opinion. somewhat like how Lincoln became compelled by society to create the Emancipation, JFK was compelled to begin the work on Civil Rights by society.

it took quite a bit of internal fortitude to still go forward with those, so I'm not trying to take away from any of those presidents. however, I also argue the Civil Rights movement started before the American Revolution, and is still to some degree going on today.

but of course, based on the opinions of most Libs on this board, I am a racist pig so what do I know.
 
zyxt9 said:
while MLK had flaws too, what he overcame and accomplished far exceeded both JFK and LBJ. it can be argued that neither JFK nor LBJ would have even started to consider legislating Civil Rights if not for the work of MLK and the societal pressure he applied to the JFK administration...but that's just my opinion. somewhat like how Lincoln became compelled by society to create the Emancipation, JFK was compelled to begin the work on Civil Rights by society.

it took quite a bit of internal fortitude to still go forward with those, so I'm not trying to take away from any of those presidents. however, I also argue the Civil Rights movement started before the American Revolution, and is still to some degree going on today.

but of course, based on the opinions of most Libs on this board, I am a racist pig so what do I know.
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Lincoln was not moved by society to draft the Emancipation Proclamation; it was solely to shorten the war and eliminate to possibility of foreign intervention on behalf of the South. A lot of Union troops "rebeled" (sic) against the premise that war aims were altered to end slavery. Only the slaves in Confederate territory not controlled by Union troops were considered as free. Not the border states or in the areas still considered in rebellion.
 
Monster said:
Really?

- established the peace corps.

- set the goal of landing on the moon and backed it up with funding.

- "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" - This quote would be repeated by every conservative man and woman on a weekly basis if Reagan had said it. Hell, it might have even been included in the Pledge of Allegiance.

- Helped end segregation in the south and moved the country closer to real racial equality. LBJ may have signed the Civil Rights Act, but it was JFK that should be held responsible. Credit to LBJ for finishing his work.

- Was able to get a nuclear test treaty signed with the Soviets and get Nukes removed and out of Cuba.

Did he make mistakes? Of course! That's not the criteria for "Greatest Figure". I'd say the qualifications should be based on accomplishments and JFK is right up there with the best of them.
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So #3 on your list of things that make him great is a platitude - by that standard, Obama should have shot to the top of your list during his first campaign. And sorry, you don't get to lionize him for the Cuban missile crisis - he was the president of the United States, that was his job. He was faced with 2 options, let Russia put nukes 90 miles away from us or stand up to them. Choosing "no" doesn't make him a great man - even Obama might have done that. Kennedy is also largely responsible for the Bay of Pigs disaster which, along w/ his performance in Vienna were 2 big reasons he ended up having to deal with the Russians trying to put missiles in Cuba in the first place. As for the Civil Rights Act, how about we give a big chunk of the credit to Republicans who co-sponsored and overwhelmingly supported the bill? 80% of house and 82% of senate Republicans voted in favor of it compared to just 61% (house) and 66% (senate) for the Dems. Not to mention he was a philandering scumbag and the son of Joe Kennedy, one of the biggest crooks in the country who rigged the election so his unqualified son could be President.
 
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zyxt9 said:
while MLK had flaws too, what he overcame and accomplished far exceeded both JFK and LBJ. it can be argued that neither JFK nor LBJ would have even started to consider legislating Civil Rights if not for the work of MLK and the societal pressure he applied to the JFK administration...but that's just my opinion. somewhat like how Lincoln became compelled by society to create the Emancipation, JFK was compelled to begin the work on Civil Rights by society.
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According to HBO's The Rat Pack, Kennedy (played by William Pederson) was compelled by Sinatra and Sammy Davis Jr.
 
Eisenhower was way ahead of the curve when it came to Federal intervention to allow "negro" school kids to attend all-white schools. The Civil Rights act of 1957 was on his watch. Both Kennedy and Johnson voted "yay."

"Ask not ..." Ted Sorensen claims that he does not recall where the line came from. And JFK had far more in common ideologically with Reagan than with Jimmy Carter.

The Peace Corps legislation was introduced in 1957 by Hubert Humphery and the premise of young people going overseas to help underprivileged peoples was in play already in the 1950s. Kennedy was championing this model as early as 1951, as were other legislators.
 
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byco42 said:
...And JFK had far more in common ideologically with Reagan than with Jimmy Carter....
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For years, Republicans kind of adopted Kennedy as an "honorary Republican" and used to like to claim "Kennedy wouldn't have been able to get the Democratic nomination these days..."

Fairly recently, Democrats have swiped that page from the playbook, and like to say "Ronald Reagan wouldn't be able to get the nomination in the Republican party of today..."
 
Well you are being so obtuse that your ends are warping and meeting on the back side of a satire so give me some slack, jack.
 
byco42 said:
Lincoln was not moved by society to draft the Emancipation Proclamation; it was solely to shorten the war and eliminate to possibility of foreign intervention on behalf of the South. A lot of Union troops "rebeled" (sic) against the premise that war aims were altered to end slavery. Only the slaves in Confederate territory not controlled by Union troops were considered as free. Not the border states or in the areas still considered in rebellion.
Click to expand...

It was not something he wanted to do before being elected and not until other events play out that he felt compelled to do it. I still will give him credit for doing it, but it isn't like he just came up with the idea all by himself. It, like JFK and the Civil Rights movement, was more of an upswelling throughout the contituency, so they did what was right once society demonstrated their support.

Still took guts, especially considering they were killed partially or fully as a result, depending on one's opinion.
 
Spartanmack said:
So #3 on your list of things that make him great is a platitude - by that standard, Obama should have shot to the top of your list during his first campaign. And sorry, you don't get to lionize him for the Cuban missile crisis - he was the president of the United States, that was his job. He was faced with 2 options, let Russia put nukes 90 miles away from us or stand up to them. Choosing "no" doesn't make him a great man - even Obama might have done that. Kennedy is also largely responsible for the Bay of Pigs disaster which, along w/ his performance in Vienna were 2 big reasons he ended up having to deal with the Russians trying to put missiles in Cuba in the first place. As for the Civil Rights Act, how about we give a big chunk of the credit to Republicans who co-sponsored and overwhelmingly supported the bill? 80% of house and 82% of senate Republicans voted in favor of it compared to just 61% (house) and 66% (senate) for the Dems. Not to mention he was a philandering scumbag and the son of Joe Kennedy, one of the biggest crooks in the country who rigged the election so his unqualified son could be President.
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Platitude? Maybe, but he actually backed up his words. And you want to talk about botched and failed military campaigns? I suggest you check Churchill's record. For all his poetic bluster, the man was involved in way too many failures - militarily and economically.

And you brought up too many people that had nothing to do with him aside from political affiliation and blood. Not sure how that relates to his legacy.

Btw, Obama's been a shitty president, only slightly above GWB in terms of shittitudiness. Way too many failures compared to successes. It's not all his fault, but he hasn't helped the situation.
 
My favorite Churchill by far is this,

“I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.”

I have modified it or replaced ugly/idiot with "Buckeye"

"Well that may be true ma'am but you're an idiot and by morning I will be sober."
 
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TheVictors said:
My favorite Churchill by far is this,

?I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.?

I have modified it or replaced ugly/idiot with "Buckeye"

"Well that may be true ma'am but you're an idiot and by morning I will be sober."
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Again...there is no evidence I have seen to support that this is anything but an urban legend.

W.C. Fields had a somewhat similar line in the short film California Bound.

Start at 7:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C9gTBlk0CY

I think this is how the Churchill myth started.
 
You know, you may be right and I missed MC's post on it.


I think it was Margaret Thatcher ...and boy, was she hammered!
 
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