Finally! A list of BLM demands!

[Sbee]

of course this too is pure nonsense. are you seriously trying to correlate rates of trying drugs with arrests? could you at least get some data on habitual users, dealers and people who commit violent drug related crime? do you think our prisons are full of first time offenders? how dumb are you going to get here?

minorities are not over-represented in arrests when you consider crime rates, they're represented at nearly the exact rates they should be. The same is true with convictions and differences in sentencing are explained by differences in prior criminal history. blacks account for nearly half of all murders. in new york, blacks and Latinos account for 97% of all gun crimes. posting stats about who tries drugs is meaningless. crime rates actually line up better with economic status - poor people commit more drug related and violent crime. arrest and conviction rates actually line up consistently with racial representation of poor people.

and as for Detroit, why do you think the jobs leave? let me guess - is it because of racism?

That was just one study about trying drugs, the point is that blacks and whites use drugs around the same rate but blacks and whites are 3x more likely to be arrested. There are plenty of other studies that show that blacks and whites use drugs at pretty much the same rate, some show blacks slightly higher, some lower, like one from the US Department of health and human services in 2013, it shows 10.5% among blacks to 9.5% among whites, hardly enough of a disparity to justify blacks being arrested at 3x the rate of whites for possession.

Of course this has more to do with economic status than race, but poor blacks tend to be concentrated in urban areas and provide easy targets for police departments looking to improve conviction statistics. This creates the atmosphere that we're seeing today with the police at odds with black communities. To say that the criminal justice system is colorblind in the face of these facts is just asinine. To answer a point in another post, 1 in 3 black men will be incarcerated, to say that doesn't contribute to absentee fathers is naive, there are other problems with the social fabric in these poor communities but mass incarceration plays a role. Of course the children of men who are in jail are more likely to end up in jail themselves and continue this cycle.

My views on this issue are as libertarian as they are left wing, I'm in line with Rand Paul and Gary Johnson on this one, along with Bernie Sanders. Hillary and Obama are lagging on this issue, Bill Clinton caused a lot of this problem with his crime bill and mandatory minimums for non violent drug offenses. Hell, do you want to spend 50k per year to keep a prisoner locked up while that does nothing to lower drug usage rates in America? I sure as hell don't, it doesn't make economic sense. It's time to start treating drug use as a health problem instead of a criminal issue.

If you're really saying that these laws are enforced equally based on race/class, given the facts and studies, you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Spartanmack]

I have way more to stand on than you do in this argument. I'm not saying they're enforced equally based on race, I'm saying they're enforced in line with crime rates by race and the data is far more compelling than your meaningless statistic about who tries drugs. People in urban areas get busted for dealing drugs more because that's where drugs are being dealt more. Look at the socio-economic break down, particularly racial % of the population among poor people. Then look at the violent crime rates by ethnicity for that economic demographic. All the numbers were discussed in another thread right here not long ago. You'll see arrest and conviction rates are consistent with the crime rates by ethnic breakdown. It's also true that sentence disparities are wholly explained by differences in prior criminal backgrounds, not race. The criminal justice system in America does not have a problem with institutionalized racism. And the more people like you tell minorities that they are victims of targeting by police, the worse off they are going to be because those are the very communities that need MORE policing, not less.

Go to the "Dallas BLM protest incident" thread, the related discussion starts around page 7 (link below will take you there). Plenty of data is posted there. Read that and you'll see you're one-legged stool has a broken leg.

http://detroitsportsforum.com/showthread.php?t=22979&page=7

 

[Gulo Blue]

I have way more to stand on than you do in this argument. I'm not saying they're enforced equally based on race, I'm saying they're enforced in line with crime rates by race and the data is far more compelling than your meaningless statistic about who tries drugs. People in urban areas get busted for dealing drugs more because that's where drugs are being dealt more. Look at the socio-economic break down, particularly racial % of the population among poor people. Then look at the violent crime rates by ethnicity for that economic demographic. All the numbers were discussed in another thread right here not long ago. You'll see arrest and conviction rates are consistent with the crime rates by ethnic breakdown. It's also true that sentence disparities are wholly explained by differences in prior criminal backgrounds, not race. The criminal justice system in America does not have a problem with institutionalized racism. And the more people like you tell minorities that they are victims of targeting by police, the worse off they are going to be because those are the very communities that need MORE policing, not less.

Go to the "Dallas BLM protest incident" thread, the related discussion starts around page 7 (link below will take you there). Plenty of data is posted there. Read that and you'll see you're one-legged stool has a broken leg.

http://detroitsportsforum.com/showthread.php?t=22979&page=7

I'm not sure if that all holds for drug crimes.

 

[TheVictors]

I thought this thread was about the Bureau of Land Management.

 

[Sbee]

I have way more to stand on than you do in this argument. I'm not saying they're enforced equally based on race, I'm saying they're enforced in line with crime rates by race and the data is far more compelling than your meaningless statistic about who tries drugs. People in urban areas get busted for dealing drugs more because that's where drugs are being dealt more. Look at the socio-economic break down, particularly racial % of the population among poor people. Then look at the violent crime rates by ethnicity for that economic demographic. All the numbers were discussed in another thread right here not long ago. You'll see arrest and conviction rates are consistent with the crime rates by ethnic breakdown. It's also true that sentence disparities are wholly explained by differences in prior criminal backgrounds, not race. The criminal justice system in America does not have a problem with institutionalized racism. And the more people like you tell minorities that they are victims of targeting by police, the worse off they are going to be because those are the very communities that need MORE policing, not less.

Go to the "Dallas BLM protest incident" thread, the related discussion starts around page 7 (link below will take you there). Plenty of data is posted there. Read that and you'll see you're one-legged stool has a broken leg.

http://detroitsportsforum.com/showthread.php?t=22979&page=7

I quoted a study on drug usage as well, not just who tries drugs. There are numerous that show the same thing that the numbers are pretty much equal and blacks get arrested for possess at 3x the rate, not dealing, but for possession. You can point out stats about violent crime, I'm not talking about violent offenders. If blacks use drugs at roughly the same rates but get arrested for possession at 3x the rate, doesn't that tell you something?

 

[Spartanmack]

I quoted a study on drug usage as well, not just who tries drugs. There are numerous that show the same thing that the numbers are pretty much equal and blacks get arrested for possess at 3x the rate, not dealing, but for possession. You can point out stats about violent crime, I'm not talking about violent offenders. If blacks use drugs at roughly the same rates but get arrested for possession at 3x the rate, doesn't that tell you something?

It tells me you don't get it. overall crime rates, including but not limited to possession, by ethnicity are a nearly perfect predictor of arrest rates. As for possession arrests, those are often secondary charges - people being stopped for something else get searched and surprise, surprise. It stands to reason that areas that require more policing, like poor often minority communities, where drugs are being dealt out in the open on the street and where people are getting stopped more for other crimes, you're going to see more arrests for possession. Is that racist?

 

[Spartanmack]

I thought this thread was about the Bureau of Land Management.

Don't get me started...

 

[Sbee]

It tells me you don't get it. overall crime rates, including but not limited to possession, by ethnicity are a nearly perfect predictor of arrest rates. As for possession arrests, those are often secondary charges - people being stopped for something else get searched and surprise, surprise. It stands to reason that areas that require more policing, like poor often minority communities, where drugs are being dealt out in the open on the street and where people are getting stopped more for other crimes, you're going to see more arrests for possession. Is that racist?

For overall crime rates, poor people are more likely to get arrested for crimes, including theft, maybe due to the fact that they are poor in the first place. Drug offenses are the largest cause of arrest and 82% of of those arrests are for possession, so the tail wags the dog in that respect.

I understand that poor areas require more policing for that reason, poor urban centers have high minority populations. You could have made arrests at my fraternity parties at MSU and we were about 90% white, strange that never happened because there were always drugs there. Maybe minorities getting arrested more because they're poor, maybe because they're black, either way it's obvious that minorities are 3x more likely to be arrested for possession than whites and of course you don't have a problem with that. People are getting locked up and costing the taxpayers billions while lining the pockets of for profit prisons and that doesn't bother you? Drug usage rates are relatively the same but we have a higher incarceration rate (698 per 100k) than every country other than the seychells which has a 92k population and jails somali pirates. we're ahead of China, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Russia, etc. We continue to treat drug use as a criminal problem and not a medical problem so we'll keep spending and picking off the poor minorities and locking them up. I'm sure that brings a smile to your face.

 

[Sbee]

It tells me you don't get it. overall crime rates, including but not limited to possession, by ethnicity are a nearly perfect predictor of arrest rates. As for possession arrests, those are often secondary charges - people being stopped for something else get searched and surprise, surprise. It stands to reason that areas that require more policing, like poor often minority communities, where drugs are being dealt out in the open on the street and where people are getting stopped more for other crimes, you're going to see more arrests for possession. Is that racist?

Funny little anecdote for you, a fraternity brother of mine, black guy, graduated with honors, got a law degree from harvard, served in Iraq, is a big time attorney, told me he was pulled over 11 times for no apparent reason. Do you think that's an isolated 11 traffic stops? I'm sure he just fit the description of someone the police were looking for.

 

[Spartanmack]

Funny little anecdote for you, a fraternity brother of mine, black guy, graduated with honors, got a law degree from harvard, served in Iraq, is a big time attorney, told me he was pulled over 11 times for no apparent reason. Do you think that's an isolated 11 traffic stops? I'm sure he just fit the description of someone the police were looking for.

Oh, you personally know a guy who claims to have been profiled. Well, that settles it. Cops are racist. did you ask him for proof that he was pulled over for no apparent reason? Not one of the 11 was for a minor traffic violation that he was let off with a warning? I've seen a cab driver turn off his light when leaving a bar with my friend who went to Princeton and Harvard business school and is a Wall St hitter (was, he's now an entrepreneur in Miami) but he's never told me about being pulled over for no apparent reason, let alone excessively. So I guess our anecdotes kinda cancel each other out, maybe we need something a little more concrete, like something that suggests blacks speed more often than whites. Maybe something like this...

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/21/n...in-speeding-in-new-jersey.html?pagewanted=all

The study shows black people are 2x as likely to speed than whites and are even more dominating among drivers in excess of 90 MPH.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/racial-profiling-myth-debunked-12244.html

but they're probably no more likely than whites to break any other traffic laws, so racism.

 

[tomdalton22]

For overall crime rates, poor people are more likely to get arrested for crimes, including theft, maybe due to the fact that they are poor in the first place. Drug offenses are the largest cause of arrest and 82% of of those arrests are for possession, so the tail wags the dog in that respect.

I understand that poor areas require more policing for that reason, poor urban centers have high minority populations. You could have made arrests at my fraternity parties at MSU and we were about 90% white, strange that never happened because there were always drugs there. Maybe minorities getting arrested more because they're poor, maybe because they're black, either way it's obvious that minorities are 3x more likely to be arrested for possession than whites and of course you don't have a problem with that. People are getting locked up and costing the taxpayers billions while lining the pockets of for profit prisons and that doesn't bother you? Drug usage rates are relatively the same but we have a higher incarceration rate (698 per 100k) than every country other than the seychells which has a 92k population and jails somali pirates. we're ahead of China, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Russia, etc. We continue to treat drug use as a criminal problem and not a medical problem so we'll keep spending and picking off the poor minorities and locking them up. I'm sure that brings a smile to your face.

Do you really think that if we started treating drug use as a medical problem people would quit using drugs. My guess is most people that use drugs like to do it and won't quit if we "help" them.

 

[Spartanmack]

For overall crime rates, poor people are more likely to get arrested for crimes, including theft, maybe due to the fact that they are poor in the first place. Drug offenses are the largest cause of arrest and 82% of of those arrests are for possession, so the tail wags the dog in that respect.

I understand that poor areas require more policing for that reason, poor urban centers have high minority populations. You could have made arrests at my fraternity parties at MSU and we were about 90% white, strange that never happened because there were always drugs there. Maybe minorities getting arrested more because they're poor, maybe because they're black, either way it's obvious that minorities are 3x more likely to be arrested for possession than whites and of course you don't have a problem with that. People are getting locked up and costing the taxpayers billions while lining the pockets of for profit prisons and that doesn't bother you? Drug usage rates are relatively the same but we have a higher incarceration rate (698 per 100k) than every country other than the seychells which has a 92k population and jails somali pirates. we're ahead of China, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Russia, etc. We continue to treat drug use as a criminal problem and not a medical problem so we'll keep spending and picking off the poor minorities and locking them up. I'm sure that brings a smile to your face.

This is getting dumber by the minute. The cops can't just raid a fraternity house based on suspicion of drug possession. If your "brothers" were dealing drugs out in the open on the front stoop all day or someone was getting shot in the parking lot every week, maybe you would have seen a higher arrest rate for possession among them. That is why poor minorities are getting arrested for possession at a higher rate. And it's not that I don't have a problem with that, I think drugs and drug related crime are the scourge of these neighborhoods. I just don't think it's indicative of systemic, institutionalized racism. The fact that I don't have a wrongheaded opinion based on misinterpreted statistics doesn't mean I'm racist - it just means I'm able to understand why certain anomalies exist. So you can take your false sense of moral superiority that you've granted yourself in order to accuse me of being racist and shove it up your dumb ass, dumbass.

 

[Sbee]

This is getting dumber by the minute. The cops can't just raid a fraternity house based on suspicion of drug possession. If your "brothers" were dealing drugs out in the open on the front stoop all day or someone was getting shot in the parking lot every week, maybe you would have seen a higher arrest rate for possession among them. That is why poor minorities are getting arrested for possession at a higher rate. And it's not that I don't have a problem with that, I think drugs and drug related crime are the scourge of these neighborhoods. I just don't think it's indicative of systemic, institutionalized racism. The fact that I don't have a wrongheaded opinion based on misinterpreted statistics doesn't mean I'm racist - it just means I'm able to understand why certain anomalies exist. So you can take your false sense of moral superiority that you've granted yourself in order to accuse me of being racist and shove it up your dumb ass, dumbass.

Did you see me say that this was due to institutionalized racism? My point all along is that the animosity between minorities and the police was due to the drug war, we're arguing about the wrong things when it comes to BLM, etc. If these poor black neighborhoods weren't targeted as easy pickings for quick convictions we wouldn't have the same problems. Whether the reason for targeting is their race, class, location, etc, we still end up with blacks using drugs at the same rate as whites and getting incarcerated at 3x the rate. all of this does nothing to lower the rates of drug use or associated violence, that was my point all along. Please don't try to twist my words, I never called you a racist, you may not be, you're just a heartless prick.

 

[tomdalton22]

Did you see me say that this was due to institutionalized racism? My point all along is that the animosity between minorities and the police was due to the drug war, we're arguing about the wrong things when it comes to BLM, etc. If these poor black neighborhoods weren't targeted as easy pickings for quick convictions we wouldn't have the same problems. Whether the reason for targeting is their race, class, location, etc, we still end up with blacks using drugs at the same rate as whites and getting incarcerated at 3x the rate. all of this does nothing to lower the rates of drug use or associated violence, that was my point all along. Please don't try to twist my words, I never called you a racist, you may not be, you're just a heartless prick.

are you saying there should be less of a police presence in these poor neighborhoods so the arrest and conviction rates are more in line with middle / upper class, mostly white, neighborhoods?

 

[Spartanmack]

Did you see me say that this was due to institutionalized racism? My point all along is that the animosity between minorities and the police was due to the drug war, we're arguing about the wrong things when it comes to BLM, etc. If these poor black neighborhoods weren't targeted as easy pickings for quick convictions we wouldn't have the same problems. Whether the reason for targeting is their race, class, location, etc, we still end up with blacks using drugs at the same rate as whites and getting incarcerated at 3x the rate. all of this does nothing to lower the rates of drug use or associated violence, that was my point all along. Please don't try to twist my words, I never called you a racist, you may not be, you're just a heartless prick.

When you say stupid comments like "...of course you don't have a problem with that" and "I'm sure that brings a smile to your face" when talking about racial disparities, you're calling me a racist - of course you're wrong about me being happy about any of this. You're simply trying to grant yourself the moral high ground because you're losing the fact based argument.

And your point all along has not been about lowering the rates of drug use - your point all along has been about what you believe to be a great racial injustice between rates of drug use by ethnicity and the arrest and conviction rates for possession. It's simply wrong.

 

[Sbee]

When you say stupid comments like "...of course you don't have a problem with that" and "I'm sure that brings a smile to your face" when talking about racial disparities, you're calling me a racist - of course you're wrong about me being happy about any of this. You're simply trying to grant yourself the moral high ground because you're losing the fact based argument.

And your point all along has not been about lowering the rates of drug use - your point all along has been about what you believe to be a great racial injustice between rates of drug use by ethnicity and the arrest and conviction rates for possession. It's simply wrong.

I don't know if you are racist or not, you do always take the knee jerk reaction to defend the cop that shoots the unarmed black person and I can't recall you talking about any racial injustice. I assume you think that slavery and segregation were wrong but we haven't discussed that. In the 21st century, I don't think you've ever acknowledged any kind of racism existing.

Look at what this thread was started about, I chimed in and echoed what Rand Paul said, that the situation in these communities is due to unequal enforcement of drug laws. I don't know what the intent is, is it racist? I don't think it's overtly racist, it's just selective enforcement of pointless drug laws. I can say definitively that though the intent may not be racist the end result of selective enforcement of drug laws has a disproportionate affect on people of color, therefore the animosity between them and the police. Can you blame them for being angry?

 

[Spartanmack]

are you saying there should be less of a police presence in these poor neighborhoods so the arrest and conviction rates are more in line with middle / upper class, mostly white, neighborhoods?

no, I think he's saying cops should raid more fraternity parties.

 

[Spartanmack]

I don't know if you are racist or not, you do always take the knee jerk reaction to defend the cop that shoots the unarmed black person and I can't recall you talking about any racial injustice. I assume you think that slavery and segregation were wrong but we haven't discussed that. In the 21st century, I don't think you've ever acknowledged any kind of racism existing.

Look at what this thread was started about, I chimed in and echoed what Rand Paul said, that the situation in these communities is due to unequal enforcement of drug laws. I don't know what the intent is, is it racist? I don't think it's overtly racist, it's just selective enforcement of pointless drug laws. I can say definitively that though the intent may not be racist the end result of selective enforcement of drug laws has a disproportionate affect on people of color, therefore the animosity between them and the police. Can you blame them for being angry?

really, I always take the knee jerk reaction to defend cops? I was the first person to post about the South Carolina cop that murdered an unarmed black guy - I started the thread. Did I defend that cop? In the Michael Brown thread, early on I said we don't have enough information to say one way or the other what happened. As evidence came out, I ended up siding with Officer Wilson, and Eric Holder's DOJ sided with him as well, was that a knee-jerk reaction by me? Which other incidents did I take the knee jerk reaction to defend the cops? Can you find one? You're just a race baiting asshole - you have no evidence to support the things you say about me other than the fact that I disagree with you and I back up everything with facts. I understand that frustrates you to the point where all you have left is to accuse me of being racist.

 

[Sbee]

are you saying there should be less of a police presence in these poor neighborhoods so the arrest and conviction rates are more in line with middle / upper class, mostly white, neighborhoods?

Police presence in these areas should be to keep people safe, not to bust people for petty drug possessions. I'm not saying that they need to bust fraternity parties but they would be easy targets for marijuana possession. There are plenty of pill poppers in white communities that are free to use without worrying about getting caught. I'd rather see drug use treated as a medical problem and not a criminal one, I'd rather us not have higher incarceration rates than any country in the world, I'd rather not see for profit prisons. In black communities, they feel unfairly targeted and they feel by simply being black in a poor area increases your chances of a deadly encounter with the police. My point all along is that the drug war is to blame for this.

 

[Sbee]

really, I always take the knee jerk reaction to defend cops? I was the first person to post about the South Carolina cop that murdered an unarmed black guy - I started the thread. Did I defend that cop? In the Michael Brown thread, early on I said we don't have enough information to say one way or the other what happened. As evidence came out, I ended up siding with Officer Wilson, and Eric Holder's DOJ sided with him as well, was that a knee-jerk reaction by me? Which other incidents did I take the knee jerk reaction to defend the cops? Can you find one? You're just a race baiting asshole - you have no evidence to support the things you say about me other than the fact that I disagree with you and I back up everything with facts. I understand that frustrates you to the point where all you have left is to accuse me of being racist.

I never said that you were racist, never said you weren't. I have said that you're a shitty human being, typical wall street trader selfish asshole, but I've never called you a racist. I didn't see the post about the SC cop, so when there's a video of an unarmed man being shot in the back, you agree that's wrong, congrats.

Is there any racial injustice with the enforcement of drug laws?