Follow-up to argument about birth control, catholicism, & ACA

[Michchamp]

Remember when whiners on this board (and the right-wing blogs they parrot) were claiming that the mandate in the ACA wasn't fair because their religious brethren would be forced to buy birth control for the strumpets they employed (and only then because the "PC government run amok" forced them to hire women and pay them wages in the first place)???

the 6th Circuit court of appeals has taken a mallet to that weak argument. That corrupt garbage couched in lame libertarian ideas.

Link.

The plaintiff, Michael Potter?founder, chairperson, president, and shareholder of Eden Foods?is a Roman Catholic who challenged the mandate on the grounds it violates his ?deeply held religious beliefs.? Citing an interview in Salon with Irin Carmon in footnote, the Sixth Circuit noted those beliefs were actually more of a ?laissez-faire, anti-government screed? than a reflection of Roman Catholic ideology.
​

citing U.S. vs. Lee:

When followers of a particular sect enter into commercial activity as a matter of choice, the limits they accept on their own conduct as a matter of conscience and faith are not to be superimposed on the statutory schemes which are binding on others in that activity. Granting an exemption from [statutory schemes] to an employer operates to impost the employer?s religious faith on the employees.
​

Ouch.

This is your argument after the court got done with it:

this is you:

 

[Thumb]

Lol

 

[jswain]

Simple solution.
His employees will be put into the exchange..ouch

 

[mhughes0021]

leave it to capt picard to shine a light on the situation....nuff said.

 

[evolutionkb]

Any word on Hobby Lobby yet? This doesn't help them...

 

[Thumb]

leave it to capt picard to shine a light on the situation....nuff said.

I have always wondered about the names John and Mary too, both used for multiple people in the new testament, yet are not middle eastern names.

It's because everything was translated or changed to suit the conveniences of the translators. But you know.....undisputed word of god and all that, with minor editing.

 

[byco42]

I have always wondered about the names John and Mary too, both used for multiple people in the new testament, yet are not middle eastern names.

It's because everything was translated or changed to suit the conveniences of the translators. But you know.....undisputed word of god and all that, with minor editing.

Mary is a Hebrew name. Kephus is the Greek translation for Peter. His original name was Simon--also a Hebrew name. Matthew was originally named Levi, and Matthew the rest are English translations of their original names. The NT was written in Greek so the names had to be translated into English. All the Greek names were derived from the orginal Hebrew names.

 

[mhughes0021]

Mary is a Hebrew name. Kephus is the Greek translation for Peter. His original name was Simon--also a Hebrew name. Matthew was originally named Levi, and Matthew the rest are English translations of their original names. The NT was written in Greek so the names had to be translated into English. All the Greek names were derived from the orginal Hebrew names.

I thought it was the "word of god." Now its a translation of the word of god?

 

[byco42]

I thought it was the "word of god." Now its a translation of the word of god?

Obviously the original scripture was not written by William Shakespeare. It was written in Greek, and translated into Latin.

 

[Michchamp]

Obviously the original scripture was not written by William Shakespeare. It was written in Greek, and translated into Latin.

with lots of mistakes, and mistranslations... that altered things significantly from those so-called "prophecies" that the ancient David Koreshes, Jerry Falwells, and Pat Robertsons of c. 2000 BCE - 400 BCE Egypt and Israel "received from god"

 

[Thumb]

Obviously the original scripture was not written by William Shakespeare. It was written in Greek, and translated into Latin.

I believe I pointed out already in the post you quoted that everything was translated.

You're attempting to fill me in on details I already knew about, and actually mentioned.

It's because everything was translated or changed to suit the conveniences of the translators. But you know.....undisputed word of god and all that, with minor editing.

See?

 

[byco42]

There is a Bible called the Vulgate. St. Jerome translated the original Greek to Latin. From that came the Douay-Rheims English version I consult. I cannot account for the way that people misinterpret scripture. Maybe the error is self-fulfilling. I only attempt to understand it. It's a life-long pursuit.

 

[mhughes0021]

the bible also states that the earth is flat, is the center of the universe, 1000s of years old and is full of other contradictions and flat out mistruths. Youd think "god" would know how old earth is....and its shape.

As far as Catholicism....I grew up catholic. It took me 1 history class in 9th grade that taught me how they used to steal peoples money to realize how fraudulent religion is. Would take peoples money and told them you were paying to get your soul out of purgatory faster lmao....what a fuckin joke.

Something created all this...including us. But it wasn't a god, he didn't have a son walk on earth and he didn't talk to people and tell them to write a book and unfortunately when we die he doesn't send our soul to some fantasyland.

 

[Gulo Blue]

[/INDENT]citing U.S. vs. Lee:

When followers of a particular sect enter into commercial activity as a matter of choice, the limits they accept on their own conduct as a matter of conscience and faith are not to be superimposed on the statutory schemes which are binding on others in that activity. Granting an exemption from [statutory schemes] to an employer operates to impost the employer?s religious faith on the employees.
​

This argument seems like it could be interpreted pretty broadly. I don't think the Catholic Church will walk away from all its hospitals over birth control, but if you want to call healthcare just another commercial activity, that might be what you get. Seems to me this argument would serve just as well to compel Catholic hospitals to perform abortions, which I think they would walk away from. Walking away would mean selling to the existing players. There are about 4,000 hospitals in the US and 3/4 are non-profit. Studies have shown that mortality rates are higher at for profit hospitals. There are over 600 Catholic hospitals that would be up for grabs if this were to happen. That's a big chunk to suddenly have to be legally concerned with their fiduciary duties.

All you libs can cheer and mock while you push back on the Church, but this is one thing where you have to be pretty biased or pretty ignorant to not see that the Catholic Church has done a great deal of good for humanity. I don't think this will be enough to cause an exit, but this argument is broad enough, I think you could keep pushing.

 

[Michchamp]

This argument seems like it could be interpreted pretty broadly. I don't think the Catholic Church will walk away from all its hospitals over birth control, but if you want to call healthcare just another commercial activity, that might be what you get. Seems to me this argument would serve just as well to compel Catholic hospitals to perform abortions, which I think they would walk away from. Walking away would mean selling to the existing players. There are about 4,000 hospitals in the US and 3/4 are non-profit. Studies have shown that mortality rates are higher at for profit hospitals. There are over 600 Catholic hospitals that would be up for grabs if this were to happen. That's a big chunk to suddenly have to be legally concerned with their fiduciary duties.

All you libs can cheer and mock while you push back on the Church, but this is one thing where you have to be pretty biased or pretty ignorant to not see that the Catholic Church has done a great deal of good for humanity. I don't think this will be enough to cause an exit, but this argument is broad enough, I think you could keep pushing.

Catholic hospitals may be a different issue; not sure how that comes into play. the case was brought by private corporations that just happened to be run by/owned by right-wing conservative catholics.

there are some catholic sects (like the Alexian Brothers) that included the provision of medical care as part of their existence. I had my achilles' tendon surgically repaired at an Alexian Brothers' hospital. this was done by a Jewish surgeon who is now retired and lives in a mansion south of LA overlooking the Pacific Ocean. the hospital in question was located in one of the relatively posh Chicago suburbs, and cared for few, if any (!), indigent people by virtue of its geographical location. I think that story (which is true) is illustrative of how things work there.

I think the idea that this is going to be seriously disruptive to catholic hospitals is overblown in my opinion, and those who will rant and rave about the injustice here are being hypocritical, but that won't stop them now, and never did before.

but anyways... if 600 hospitals have to start providing abortions or abortion-related services (or references which they already probably did quietly for their wealthier patrons, as always), and provide health insurance for their employees which could be used to GASP! buy birth control or alternatively sell to for profit institutions... it won't be that big of a deal. and we'll all be better off as humanity's progress on the seas of history will be a little less impeded by the dragging anchor that is organized religion.

 

[Michchamp]

I don't know how it factors in to other people's thinking, but personally, I have a hard time taking the catholic church and some catholics in general seriously when they claim this, but have a long, repeated, remorseless history of doing this, or belong to a church that did that.

 

[byco42]

I don't know how it factors in to other people's thinking, but personally, I have a hard time taking the catholic church and some catholics in general seriously when they claim this, but have a long, repeated, remorseless history of doing this, or belong to a church that did that.

Well, I have an explanation, but you have already made up your mind, so I'll withhold it.

 

[Thumb]

I think it's a pretty far stretch to say that a Catholic Hospital (as an employer) that has to provide insurance that would cover contraceptives for those employees who wish it, might also be forced to perform a medical procedure (abortions) against it's will/policy.

It's really an extreme, conspiracy theory-style idea, without much factual basis.

 

[Michchamp]

I think it's a pretty far stretch to say that a Catholic Hospital (as an employer) that has to provide insurance that would cover contraceptives for those employees who wish it, might also be forced to perform a medical procedure (abortions) against it's will/policy.

It's really an extreme, conspiracy theory-style idea, without much factual basis.

good point.

a lot of the outrage from the catholics seems to rely on "what ifs" or "what could happen, maybe" or twisted interpretations of the statutory language, or worse, of mere public statements instead of what the law mandates and requires.

does anybody actually know?

 

[biggunsbob]

This argument seems like it could be interpreted pretty broadly. I don't think the Catholic Church will walk away from all its hospitals over birth control, but if you want to call healthcare just another commercial activity, that might be what you get. Seems to me this argument would serve just as well to compel Catholic hospitals to perform abortions, which I think they would walk away from. Walking away would mean selling to the existing players. There are about 4,000 hospitals in the US and 3/4 are non-profit. Studies have shown that mortality rates are higher at for profit hospitals. There are over 600 Catholic hospitals that would be up for grabs if this were to happen. That's a big chunk to suddenly have to be legally concerned with their fiduciary duties.

All you libs can cheer and mock while you push back on the Church, but this is one thing where you have to be pretty biased or pretty ignorant to not see that the Catholic Church has done a great deal of good for humanity. I don't think this will be enough to cause an exit, but this argument is broad enough, I think you could keep pushing.

First thing I think of with the Catholic Church is the crusades.. Just more useless deaths all in the name of religion. The Crusades were religious conflicts during the High Middle Ages through the end of the Late Middle Ages, conducted under the sanction of the Latin Catholic Church. You may think all of us non-religious people don't see the good that some religious institutions do but the facts are that most of them have a really bad checked past, present, and future. We would all be better off if they all had to pay taxes like regular businesses.. Then we would see how many true believers where out there..