Follow-up to argument about birth control, catholicism, & ACA

[Michchamp]

Well, I have an explanation, but you have already made up your mind, so I'll withhold it.

thank you. rest assured that I have most likely already encountered it from more religious friends and family in person, or some written editorial or statement of the church and found it wholly unpersuasive.

 

[Michchamp]

First thing I think of with the Catholic Church is the crusades.. Just more useless deaths all in the name of religion. The Crusades were religious conflicts during the High Middle Ages through the end of the Late Middle Ages, conducted under the sanction of the Latin Catholic Church. You may think all of us non-religious people don't see the good that some religious institutions do but the facts are that most of them have a really bad checked past, present, and future. We would all be better off if they all had to pay taxes like regular businesses.. Then we would see how many true believers where out there..

that was a long time ago, Bob.

don't let the actions of a few bad apples affect your judgment. and ignore anything to the contrary and just take their word that it's been one long unbroken & consistent tradition going back to Christ, and therefore when they act all sanctimonious about birth control and abortion now, it's due to heartfelt concerns of humanity, and not some cynical, twisted attempt to control peoples' lives and insert themselves into other peoples' business, and conveniently avoid some insurance mandates that may hurt their bottom line...

 

[biggunsbob]

I believe in a women's right to chose, and I just cannot stand that ANY RELIGIOUS rhetoric that gets injected in politics at any time.. It clouds people's, and politician's judgment on making any real progress in America..

There should be no religion in Government period. That was made pretty clear by the founding fathers.. I cannot stand the religious right, and their hypocritical stances..

 

[tinselwolverine]

First thing I think of with the Catholic Church is the crusades..

The first thing I think of is the Spanish Inquisition.

Were you expecting that?

 

[biggunsbob]

The first thing I think of is the Spanish Inquisition.

Were you expecting that?

Yup.. All religion sucks..
Most wars start because of religion of some sort..
Make them all pay taxes just like all businesses and then we will see the true believers..
Fuck them all and their hypocrisy.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Yup.. All religion sucks..
Most wars start because of religion of some sort..
Make them all pay taxes just like all businesses and then we will see the true believers..
Fuck them all and their hypocrisy.

You were expecting the Spanish Inquisition?

Wow.

I thought that nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition.

@ 5:45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m07ISfx_5b0

 

[biggunsbob]

that was a long time ago, Bob.

don't let the actions of a few bad apples affect your judgment. and ignore anything to the contrary and just take their word that it's been one long unbroken & consistent tradition going back to Christ, and therefore when they act all sanctimonious about birth control and abortion now, it's due to heartfelt concerns of humanity, and not some cynical, twisted attempt to control peoples' lives and insert themselves into other peoples' business, and conveniently avoid some insurance mandates that may hurt their bottom line...

Long time ago maybe...
But tell that to some of the boy's and girls that were molested in the Catholic sex abuse cases if you want to go more current...

Look I know that some religious institutions try and do good also but when I see church's after churches closed when it is freezing outside in winter and I wonder why don't they open their doors to the poor for shelter? I know it is somebody else's problem right?

 

[Gulo Blue]

I think it's a pretty far stretch to say that a Catholic Hospital (as an employer) that has to provide insurance that would cover contraceptives for those employees who wish it, might also be forced to perform a medical procedure (abortions) against it's will/policy.

It's really an extreme, conspiracy theory-style idea, without much factual basis.

Extreme conspiracy theories? Me?

What I actually said was that that legal argument could apply broadly, including to hospitals providing abortions, which I think would lead to the Catholic Church selling its hospitals. Re-reading it, I see where I'm probably wrong. I read over the phrase "statutory schemes" without really thinking about what it meant. I guess there's no statutory scheme requiring hospitals to offer specific services (that I'm aware of). I screwed up in reading over the phrase "statutory schemes" and interpreting the argument as broad, but I'm not offering extreme, conspiracy-style ideas (what conspiracy would I even be suggesting?)

 

[Gulo Blue]

First thing I think of with the Catholic Church is the crusades.. Just more useless deaths all in the name of religion. The Crusades were religious conflicts during the High Middle Ages through the end of the Late Middle Ages, conducted under the sanction of the Latin Catholic Church. You may think all of us non-religious people don't see the good that some religious institutions do but the facts are that most of them have a really bad checked past, present, and future. We would all be better off if they all had to pay taxes like regular businesses.. Then we would see how many true believers where out there..

FYI. In much of Europe, religious organizations get funding through government issued religion taxes.

But you've got me wrong on at least one point. I don't think all non-religious people don't see the good that religious organizations do. Just a fair cut of the loudest ones.

 

[Michchamp]

Extreme conspiracy theories? Me?

What I actually said was that that legal argument could apply broadly, ...

I got a legal argument for ya right here:

 

[Thumb]

Extreme conspiracy theories? Me?

What I actually said was that that legal argument could apply broadly, including to hospitals providing abortions, which I think would lead to the Catholic Church selling its hospitals. Re-reading it, I see where I'm probably wrong. I read over the phrase "statutory schemes" without really thinking about what it meant. I guess there's no statutory scheme requiring hospitals to offer specific services (that I'm aware of). I screwed up in reading over the phrase "statutory schemes" and interpreting the argument as broad, but I'm not offering extreme, conspiracy-style ideas (what conspiracy would I even be suggesting?)

What you actually said..

Seems to me this argument would serve just as well to compel Catholic hospitals to perform abortions

Again, that's a HUGE leap to suggest that employers be required to offer insurance which provides for birth control, to saying they might be forced to perform an elective medical procedure, such as abortions.

That is a conspiracy-style idea, even if you misinterpreted it, that's how things get rolling, and FOX News has a new story or editorial to run.

 

[Thumb]

FYI. In much of Europe, religious organizations get funding through government issued religion taxes.

But you've got me wrong on at least one point. I don't think all non-religious people don't see the good that religious organizations do. Just a fair cut of the loudest ones.

I'm on record (several times in this sub-forum) as saying I don't have a problem with religion or spirituality assuming it remains a personal thing. But Bob is right when he says it should never influence our government, our employment, or any personal right other than what we choose.

Many good things come from religion, and I don't dispute it. My only problem is when it infringes on my life, thats when I take offense. And the flip side is when I don't allow it to happen is when most religious people take offense.

So like you, I don't have a problem with most people who are religious, just the loudest ones, and there are a lot more of them, than there are of us.

 

[Michchamp]

... But Bob is right when he says it should never influence our government, our employment, or any personal right other than what we choose.

...

careful Thumb, and Bob. I said the same thing, and was branded an elitist.

and you know, once you are an "elitist" nothing you say matters, and people like KAWDUP, Red, and tsmith will ignore you, because no one likes an elitist.

 

[Gulo Blue]

What you actually said..



Again, that's a HUGE leap to suggest that employers be required to offer insurance which provides for birth control, to saying they might be forced to perform an elective medical procedure, such as abortions.

That is a conspiracy-style idea, even if you misinterpreted it, that's how things get rolling, and FOX News has a new story or editorial to run.

What are you supposed to be correcting me on?

"This argument seems like it could be interpreted pretty broadly.
...
Seems to me this argument would serve just as well to compel Catholic hospitals to perform abortions"

vs.

"What I actually said was that that legal argument could apply broadly, including to hospitals providing abortions"

Like I said, no conspiracy theory.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I got a legal argument for ya right here:

You've been a model lawyer today.

 

[KAWDUP]

the bible also states that the earth is flat, is the center of the universe, 1000s of years old and is full of other contradictions and flat out mistruths. Youd think "god" would know how old earth is....and its shape.

As far as Catholicism....I grew up catholic. It took me 1 history class in 9th grade that taught me how they used to steal peoples money to realize how fraudulent religion is. Would take peoples money and told them you were paying to get your soul out of purgatory faster lmao....what a fuckin joke.

Something created all this...including us. But it wasn't a god, he didn't have a son walk on earth and he didn't talk to people and tell them to write a book and unfortunately when we die he doesn't send our soul to some fantasyland.

Pick and choose specific passages all you want. What you provide here is nothing short of what you want to believe, just as many believers do the same in some of their arguments.

I have a question, show me where a responsible and respected religious scholar (Christian preferred) has said specifically that a passage containing the words ". . . the earth is flat . . ." is somehow divinely inspired text, and must be true - you got a link to something like that? How about one showing a scholar saying " . . . the Earth is the center of the universe . . . "?

. . . and the bolded above - you don't know this and cannot prove otherwise. That is, of course, if you really are equating fantasyland with an after-life. A silly analogy really, but I assume you were just playing dumb to get a laugh.

 

[Gulo Blue]

careful Thumb, and Bob. I said the same thing, and was branded an elitist.

and you know, once you are an "elitist" nothing you say matters, and people like KAWDUP, Red, and tsmith will ignore you, because no one likes an elitist.

...up there in yer fancy luxury suites, laughin' at us rubes out in the weather.

 

[KAWDUP]

careful Thumb, and Bob. I said the same thing, and was branded an elitist.

and you know, once you are an "elitist" nothing you say matters, and people like KAWDUP, Red, and tsmith will ignore you, because no one likes an elitist.

I ignore you? You must be joking!

Oh BTW . . . you are an elitist. Deal with it.

 

[KAWDUP]

Fair warning - going back to the beginning to refute something silly champ said. Feel free to ignore - just trolling champ as usual.

Remember when whiners on this board (and the right-wing blogs they parrot)

. . . you mean as opposed to the other whiners on this board (and the left-wing blogs which they parrot)?

 

[KAWDUP]

Yup.. All liberals suck..
Most wars start because of left-wing nuts of some sort..
Make them all pay taxes just like all businesses and then we will see the true believers..
Fuck them all and their hypocrisy.

Fixed it for you. See how what your spewed rhetoric is anything but informed opinion?