Is this Hall Worthy?

[tycobb420]

Mr. Rube Waddell...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wadderu01.shtml

 

[tycobb420]

Born: October 13, 1876

Debut: September 8, 1897 (Louisville Colonels)

1898: Loaned to Detroit Wolverines for

 

[tycobb420]

Some crazy stories about him!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Waddell

 

[Mitchrapp]

Played in a pitchers era though that seem like he didn't get as many start as you'd think. Only 340. Not particularly long career. Tough one.

 

[chrisinthed]

Yes, 50 shutouts, 2.16 ERA, Triple Crown. I don't care if it was a pitchers era or not, this is a no brainer. The Hall has a place for careers that are undeniably great, even if they are shorter than other HOFers, e.g. Sandy Koufax comes to mind.

From the baseball reference site: "Rube Waddell had more sheer pitching ability than any man I ever saw." -Walter Johnson.

 

[tycobb420]

193-143 (.574) seems pedestrian. But the other numbers- 50 shutouts stands out, the 2316 ks in 2961 IP in the deadball era, 261 CG in 340 GS, 2.16 ERA, Triple Crown, and 6 K titles--are impressive

 

[biggunsbob]

Yes but there are a lot of pitchers with this kind of record... I know wins and losses mean nothing... The first four on this list were being compared in Bill James book whatever happened to the HOF. Of this list only Chesbro made the hall of fame

Chesbro 191-131. 2.68. 35 SH and 260 CG. five times he won 20 games but one year he won 41.
Tannehill 197-116 2.77. 34 SH and 264 CG. ........Six time twenty game winner.
Leever 194-101 2.47. 39 shutouts and 24 CG.. Four time twenty game winner.
Philliippe 189-107 2.59. 27 shutouts and 242 CG.. Six time 20 game winner.

Bridges 194-138 3.57 33 shutouts and 200 CG. Three time 20 game winner. (Homer pick not listed in the book).

Two others.

Vance 197-140 3.24 era has 29 shutouts and 216 CG. And only three 20 win seasons.. Dazzy is in the hall and probably should not be..

Warneke 193-121 3.18 era. 30 shutouts and 192 CG. He won 20 games three times also but is not in the hall... Both Vance and Chesbro had one dominate I mean dominate season.. Did that season get them both in?

 

[tycobb420]

biggunsbob[/color]]Yes but there are a lot of pitchers with this kind of record... I know wins and losses mean nothing... The first four on this list were being compared in Bill James book whatever happened to the HOF. Of this list only Chesbro made the hall of fame

Chesbro 191-131. 2.68. 35 SH and 260 CG. Four time he won 20 games but one year he won 41.
Tannehill 197-116 2.77. 34 SH and 264 CG. ........Six time twenty game winner.
Leever 194-101 2.47. 39 shutouts and 24 CG.. Four time twenty game winner.
Philliippe 189-107 2.59. 27 shutouts and 242 CG.. Six time 20 game winner.

Bridges 194-138 3.57 33 shutouts and 200 CG. Three time 20 game winner. (Homer pick not listed in the book).

Two others.

Vance 197-140 3.24 era has 29 shutouts and 216 CG. And only three 20 win seasons.. Dazzy is in the hall and probably should not be..

Warneke 193-121 3.18 era. 30 shutouts and 192 CG. He won 20 games three times also but is not in the hall... Both Vance and Chesbro had one dominate I mean dominate season.. Did that season get them both in?

Over a career W-L does mean something...esp if they are in the HOF...and esp at a time when guys completed what they started. I always questioned Vance as well, but he did pitch in the 20s. I do think Chesbro is in for winning 40 one season.

 

[jimrice]

The Old Timer's vote is a mistake, in my opinion.

 

[kalinecountry]

biggunsbob[/color]]Yes but there are a lot of pitchers with this kind of record... I know wins and losses mean nothing... The first four on this list were being compared in Bill James book whatever happened to the HOF. Of this list only Chesbro made the hall of fame

Chesbro 191-131. 2.68. 35 SH and 260 CG. Four time he won 20 games but one year he won 41.
Tannehill 197-116 2.77. 34 SH and 264 CG. ........Six time twenty game winner.
Leever 194-101 2.47. 39 shutouts and 24 CG.. Four time twenty game winner.
Philliippe 189-107 2.59. 27 shutouts and 242 CG.. Six time 20 game winner.

Bridges 194-138 3.57 33 shutouts and 200 CG. Three time 20 game winner. (Homer pick not listed in the book).

Two others.

Vance 197-140 3.24 era has 29 shutouts and 216 CG. And only three 20 win seasons.. Dazzy is in the hall and probably should not be..

Warneke 193-121 3.18 era. 30 shutouts and 192 CG. He won 20 games three times also but is not in the hall... Both Vance and Chesbro had one dominate I mean dominate season.. Did that season get them both in?

Lefty Gomez 189-102, off the top of my head.
Ed Walsh 195-126, 1.82 ERA. 57 Shutouts, had to look up,

 

[tycobb420]

KalineCountry[/color]]
[quote="biggunsbob":jadbeo5h]Yes but there are a lot of pitchers with this kind of record... I know wins and losses mean nothing... The first four on this list were being compared in Bill James book whatever happened to the HOF. Of this list only Chesbro made the hall of fame

Chesbro 191-131. 2.68. 35 SH and 260 CG. Four time he won 20 games but one year he won 41.
Tannehill 197-116 2.77. 34 SH and 264 CG. ........Six time twenty game winner.
Leever 194-101 2.47. 39 shutouts and 24 CG.. Four time twenty game winner.
Philliippe 189-107 2.59. 27 shutouts and 242 CG.. Six time 20 game winner.

Bridges 194-138 3.57 33 shutouts and 200 CG. Three time 20 game winner. (Homer pick not listed in the book).

Two others.

Vance 197-140 3.24 era has 29 shutouts and 216 CG. And only three 20 win seasons.. Dazzy is in the hall and probably should not be..

Warneke 193-121 3.18 era. 30 shutouts and 192 CG. He won 20 games three times also but is not in the hall... Both Vance and Chesbro had one dominate I mean dominate season.. Did that season get them both in?

Lefty Gomez 189-102, off the top of my head.
Ed Walsh 195-126, 1.82 ERA. 57 Shutouts, had to look up, [/quote:jadbeo5h]

Gomez at least had a .650 win %. Walsh seems to be about .600. (Doing math in head here). Waddell was .574

 

[biggunsbob]

I thank Vance gets in on his one dominate season too like Chesbro.. Vance was 28-6 in 1924 with 30 CG and 262 k's, and a 2.14 ERa.. But other then that he only had two other 20 win season. He must have been a fan favorite because his numbers does not warrant a HOF selection.

Chesbro did have five 20 win seasons counting his 1904 season of 41-12..with a 2.17 era with 48 CG and 6 shutouts...K/BB was 239/88 and a whopping 454.2 innings.. but jack before he burned out had a nice stretch. i was wrong about jack he had a good stretch not just on dominate year unlike Vance..

1901 21-12.
1902 28-6.
1903 21-15.
1904 41-12.
1905 19-15
1906 23-17.

Oh I agree with you Ty but I know some on here don't like wins and losses...

 

[biggunsbob]

I am not a Yankee fan by any means but is Vance gets in shouldn't Ron Guidry. He was.

170-91 for a .651 percent 3.29 era, and three 20 win seasons. Including that 25-3 season and he had 95 Complete games and 26 shutouts..

Urban Shocker was 187-113 good for a . 615 with a 3.17 era. and Four 20 win season all in a row His best being 27-12 in 1921... he had 200 CG and 28 shutouts.. I guess being a contact pitcher hurt him 983/657.

I guess Vance's 2045/840 K/bb helps his cause but still others have just as good as stats as him..


Dave Cone
194- 126 .606 56 cg and 22 shutouts with a 2668/1137 k/bb ratio But only 2 twenty win season that were very far apart 1988 20-3 with the mets and 1998 20-7 with the Yankees.

Why isn't Carl Mays in the hall over Vance? Because of the Chapman incident
208-126 good for .623 and 231 CG and 29 shutouts. with a 2.92 era. 862/734 (no K's) With Five 20 win season including a 26-12 and a 27-9 in back to back seasons. he was on 4 world series teams going 3-4 and wining 2 series with Boston but losses 2 with the yanks..

Yet Stan Coveleski is in the HOF.
215-142 .602 224 CG and 38 shutouts. era 2.89. 981/802 K./bb he also had five 20 win season but four of them were in a row.. But none as good as May's two season.. I happen to think Stan should be in but so should Mays. He was 3-2 on two different WS teams going 1-1 in the titles..

 

[tycobb420]

biggunsbob[/color]]I am not a Yankee fan by any means but is Vance gets in shouldn't Ron Guidry. He was.

170-91 for a .651 percent 3.29 era, and three 20 win seasons. Including that 25-3 season and he had 95 Complete games and 26 shutouts..

Urban Shocker was 187-113 good for a . 615 with a 3.17 era. and Four 20 win season all in a row His best being 27-12 in 1921... he had 200 CG and 28 shutouts.. I guess being a contact pitcher hurt him 983/657.

I guess Vance's 2045/840 K/bb helps his cause but still others have just as good as stats as him..


Dave Cone
194- 126 .606 56 cg and 22 shutouts with a 2668/1137 k/bb ratio But only 2 twenty win season that were very far apart 1988 20-3 with the mets and 1998 20-7 with the Yankees.

Why isn't Carl Mays in the hall over Vance? Because of the Chapman incident
208-126 good for .623 and 231 CG and 29 shutouts. with a 2.92 era. 862/734 (no K's) With Five 20 win season including a 26-12 and a 27-9 in back to back seasons. he was on 4 world series teams going 3-4 and wining 2 series with Boston but losses 2 with the yanks..

Yet Stan Coveleski is in the HOF.
215-142 .602 224 CG and 38 shutouts. era 2.89. 981/802 K./bb he also had five 20 win season but four of them were in a row.. But none as good as May's two season.. I happen to think Stan should be in but so should Mays. He was 3-2 on two different WS teams going 1-1 in the titles..

All good points IMO. Maybe it just shows how the HOF has changed. When Guidry was healthy, he was as good as anyone.

 

[biggunsbob]

Fun topic Ty... You know me.. I love stats...