Man, Bernie Sanders is so great

[Spartanmack]

Still waiting for someone to respond to the guy who has actual experience in the system and not from a Huff Post link.

post 52 (PH = Polish Hammer). but why would you put more weight behind a single anecdote than a broader analysis?

Also, what's significant about the huff post piece is it's critical of Universal health care or at least it tells the truth about what's happening in Canada - not something you see every day from a leftist outlet. That's why it was pointed out along with the pieces from other leftist outlets like the Guardian and NPR - don't know about the Japan Times and Forbes leans a bit right. Even some leftists can see the truth and are being honest about it.

 

[sggatecl]

gutted how? and with what leverage? not a single Republican voted for the bill. It wasn't sabotaged by Republicans, it was designed to fail by the people pushing it.

You're right, I always mistake Lieberman for a republican. That's my mistake. But I think you give the dems too much credit in that they had the long term vision to make this fail in order to get single payer a decade later. Maybe you're right though.

 

[sggatecl]

post 52 (PH = Polish Hammer). but why would you put more weight behind a single anecdote than a broader analysis?

Also, what's significant about the huff post piece is it's critical of Universal health care or at least it tells the truth about what's happening in Canada - not something you see every day from a leftist outlet. That's why it was pointed out along with the pieces from other leftist outlets like the Guardian and NPR - don't know about the Japan Times and Forbes leans a bit right. Even some leftists can see the truth and are being honest about it.

I actually wasn't referring to your specific Huff Post piece, I just hate Huff Post in general along with the Guardian and NPR (NPR has fallen so far). I don't mind Forbes.

I'll take his (and others) single anecdotes because they are less likely to have an agenda than some of the sources you cited, regardless of where they lean. NPR for example leans left pretty heavily but is so anti Bernie it's funny. They know where the money is at.

 

[Spartanmack]

You're right, I always mistake Lieberman for a republican. That's my mistake. But I think you give the dems too much credit in that they had the long term vision to make this fail in order to get single payer a decade later. Maybe you're right though.

that's my suspicion but to your point it does mean it's possible they may not be as dumb as I think...

I actually wasn't referring to your specific Huff Post piece, I just hate Huff Post in general along with the Guardian and NPR (NPR has fallen so far). I don't mind Forbes.

I'll take his (and others) single anecdotes because they are less likely to have an agenda than some of the sources you cited, regardless of where they lean. NPR for example leans left pretty heavily but is so anti Bernie it's funny. They know where the money is at.

I like Forbes too although I don't subscribe or read it regularly. I can't stand the others either and agree 100% on NPR - after a while, car talk was the only show I listened to and I don't even listen to that anymore. I just find it telling when even they publish articles that are inconsistent with or even contradict the leftist talking points.

 

[sggatecl]

I can't stand the others either and agree 100% on NPR - after a while, car talk was the only show I listened to and I don't even listen to that anymore.

RIP Tom :cheers:

 

[biggunsbob]

socialized medicine is failing but as bob says "who cares? It's coming to America!"

newsflash bob, the ACA is a failure because it was designed to fail, not because anything Republicans did to it.

Like always you have no clue what your talking about and again fail to blame the real party who never wanted the ACA to work. They lying Obstructionist GOP party.
Stop lying that it's not working. Tell that to the millions who have coverage. Again answer the damn questions. Why don't the gop work with the Democrats to fix or come up with a better plan? News flash just like the last 20 + years the Gop has no plan ..

 

[Spartanmack]

Like always you have no clue what your talking about and again fail to blame the real party who never wanted the ACA to work. They lying Obstructionist GOP party.
Stop lying that it's not working. Tell that to the millions who have coverage. Again answer the damn questions. Why don't the gop work with the Democrats to fix or come up with a better plan? News flash just like the last 20 + years the Gop has no plan ..

where's your proof bob? what evidence can you show other than "obstructionism"? what did the GOP do to make Obamacare fail? Republicans didn't force any insurers out of the exchanges - they left because they were losing money. Republicans didn't force any exchanges to fail - they failed because they weren't sustainable. You have no evidence the GOP made it fail because there is none. The program failed all on it's own and nobody is working to fix it because unlike you, they know it's not fixable. It needs to be repealed and replaced with real healthcare reform and if we can't get that, we should at least unwind the aCA and go back to the better system we already had.

 

[Spartanmack]

RIP Tom :cheers:

I remember hearing that but it's been so long since I listened to the show, I forgot about that. What a great show. The girl I dated in the late 90s never owned a car and knew nothing about cars - she could barely use a screwdriver but she listened to the show nearly every weekend.

 

[Michchamp]

by any measure, single payer should improve things, the only question is by how much.

"Obamacare" costs going up has more to do with the fact that the health insurance industry underwent further significant concentration after it passed; there are like 4-5 big insurers nationwide now, and some of them have virtual monopolies in some markets.

our government doesn't really enforce anti-trust laws anymore.

I read an article that showed the administrative costs of administering healthcare in other 1st world countries are signficantly lower than the US as a percentage of total cost. it's like in the US 20-30% of the healthcare cost goes to pay administrative costs, insurer's employees' salaries and what not. in other countries, it was like 5-10%. so there will be significant savings for everyone, by cutting into that premium we're currently paying to UnitedHealth Care, etc. for the privilege of "health insurance" with as high deductibles and out-of-pocket costs as they decide we should have to pay.

that's the real source of opposition to this; the idea that actual care will get worse is a baseless scare tactic. it can't really get worse than it is, and for many it will get a lot better.

and, of course, sparta mack is really worried about what will happen to healthcare for his heroes, the billionaires. they have great insurance now. will it get worse for them? the answer is no: they will still be able to pay insane amounts of money for private care, that no one else can afford. if they don't want to though, they can go on Uncle Sam's new single payer and save some cash like the rest of us.

 

[tomdalton22]

has anyone come up with a good "single payer" plan yet? When I say good plan, I mean one that will work and financially feasible.

 

[Spartanmack]

by any measure, single payer should improve things, the only question is by how much.

"Obamacare" costs going up has more to do with the fact that the health insurance industry underwent further significant concentration after it passed; there are like 4-5 big insurers nationwide now, and some of them have virtual monopolies in some markets.

our government doesn't really enforce anti-trust laws anymore.

I read an article that showed the administrative costs of administering healthcare in other 1st world countries are signficantly lower than the US as a percentage of total cost. it's like in the US 20-30% of the healthcare cost goes to pay administrative costs, insurer's employees' salaries and what not. in other countries, it was like 5-10%. so there will be significant savings for everyone, by cutting into that premium we're currently paying to UnitedHealth Care, etc. for the privilege of "health insurance" with as high deductibles and out-of-pocket costs as they decide we should have to pay.

that's the real source of opposition to this; the idea that actual care will get worse is a baseless scare tactic. it can't really get worse than it is, and for many it will get a lot better.

and, of course, sparta mack is really worried about what will happen to healthcare for his heroes, the billionaires. they have great insurance now. will it get worse for them? the answer is no: they will still be able to pay insane amounts of money for private care, that no one else can afford. if they don't want to though, they can go on Uncle Sam's new single payer and save some cash like the rest of us.

this starts out with a false premise and just gets more wrong from there.

Obamacare costs went up because of negative selection and the cost of providing covered care, not because of monopolies. If it had anything to do with monopolies, then other carriers would come into those states and compete those profits away. State exchanges are literally begging for more carriers to save their programs. Any "monopolies" were created by companies pulling out of exchanges because they were taking massive losses despite increased premiums. You couldn't be more wrong.

You think the government running health care will actually reduce administrative costs. LOL - that's never happened in any government run program. If anything, it will likely go up because the government isn't accountable for a bottom line. Again, you're completely wrong.

It's not a baseless scare tactic. Care will likely get worse, doctors will become more scarce and healthcare will end up being rationed - just like it is in most countries that have this horrible system. That's what happens when you try to manage from the demand side and controlling the supply side. That's been proved time and again - just read the articles that were posted here today. Now you're 0 for 3.

Why do you keep bringing up billionaires? They're not my heroes but even if they were, it's safe to say the ones I'd choose were at least a more admirable crowd than the scum you've publicly worshipped (Bernie Sanders, Che Guevara, Stalin, Karl Marx, etc, etc). Please, tell me when have I ever said anything about billionaires. Never. Oh yeah, you have to say I'm saying things I'm not, in order to argue against them and declare victory. This is such a stupid and lazy yet wholly unsurprising tactic of yours. Everyone knows this has NOTHING to do with billionaires or even the ultra rich - they'll be able to pay cash to private practitioners for whatever they need. I'm worried about my healthcare and the healthcare of those for whom this matters. Clearly, you're the one who has an obsession with billionaires as you can't stop reminded everyone how evil they are and how they need to be dispossessed by the good people of the government. Hard to say if you're completely wrong here since we agree billionaires won't be affected by this but you're at least mostly wrong. Since you argue like a complete douchebag, making this personal and lying about what I've said, I'm gonna go ahead and say you're 0 for 4.

 

[Gulo Blue]

has anyone come up with a good "single payer" plan yet? When I say good plan, I mean one that will work and financially feasible.

Sure. A good single payer plan would be a crappy one that the right calls socialized and the left says doesn't go far enough. You start with the budget. You ignore the extreme parts of both parties and get a committee of centrists to agree on a funding level; I'd spitball in the $200-600 billion level to get the ball rolling. That would be both a lot of money and still only like 10-20% of healthcare spending. Then you have a commission, and regulating this thing would be a real challenge, that ranks healthcare spending based on cost-effectiveness. They determine what can be done with that money. Maybe we get vaccines, pediatric visits, maternity care, 4 visits per adult to a general practitioner, and 1 emergency room visit per year. Anything else stays on private insurance.

As a result, of all the stuff being funded by the national healthcare, insurance rates had better go down. You'd hope free markets would cause that to happen, but it may take some government arm twisting and saber rattling via Congressional hearings if they don't. Then as time marches on, you can do studies to see if the single payer system is cost effective and decide to increase or decrease funding and include or exclude more elements.

 

[biggunsbob]

I wish I had the same staff and a healthare as senators!!!!

Single payer can be done right . Get both party's togther and work it out. People act like once single payer is in place there won't be extra insurance for rich folk's to buy so the don't have to wait with me and my sister and poor folks at the doctors office.

 

[Michchamp]

has anyone come up with a good "single payer" plan yet? When I say good plan, I mean one that will work and financially feasible.

off the top of my head, only Canada, the UK, Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria, Japan, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland

 

[tinselwolverine]

Any "monopolies" were created by companies pulling out of exchanges because they were taking massive losses despite increased premiums. You couldn't be more wrong.

Sheldon would take issue with this declaration. @ :50.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F_1zoX5Ax9U

 

[Michchamp]

Bump.

Sanders' senate seat the safest of any incumbent Senator. Say that ten times fast. (link)

has a 61% approval rating among his constiuents. That's how democracy is supposed to work, right?

The average senator? 33%. yet most, if not all of them will be reelected. that's not how a democracy is supposed to work...

 

[Spartanmack]

Bump.

Sanders' senate seat the safest of any incumbent Senator. Say that ten times fast. (link)

has a 61% approval rating among his constiuents. That's how democracy is supposed to work, right?

The average senator? 33%. yet most, if not all of them will be reelected. that's not how a democracy is supposed to work...

Shocker! The People's Republic of Vermont hasn't become any less leftist. say that 10 time fast.

 

[tinselwolverine]

off the top of my head, only Canada, the UK, Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria, Japan, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland

Really, in my research, that's not true.

The public medical plans in both Canada and the UK suck. I would imagine it's the same in those other countries. Anybody who can afford private insurance in both those countries gets it.

Amongst Medicaid and other public health care which is shitty and sucks - we have the equivalent to public healthcare that Canada and the UK provides already - which also sucks.

We should just open up shitty sucky Medicaid to people who aren't broke yet with pre-existing conditions who can't get private insurance but also don't qualify for Medicaiad until they're broke, and declare ourselves as having socialized medicine, which we already do anyway, socialized medicine that sucks, just like it sucks in Canada and the UK and everywhere else there's socialized medicine where people who can afford private insurance get private insurance and stop wasting our time on this stupid idiotic argument.

Turn our attention to meaningful and important stuff, like internet porn, or which of the stupid hot chicks on the Info wars video is hotter.

 

[Michchamp]

Bump.

Bernie's Running! I'm fuckin' STOKED.

 

[Spartanmack]

looking forward to the excuses when he crashes and burns again. gotta give the lazy lay about some credit though - he has hijacked the Dem party w/ his loonbag ideas to the point where radical leftist moronic ideas now dominate the mainstream Democrat platform. They've been very clever about it too - somehow they've convinced the rubes that the GOP is being taken over by radical far right ideologues while quietly transforming the Dem tent into a radical leftist haven. Pretty sneaky sis.