Not excited about Clinton's candidacy

[Michchamp]

Bernie Sanders joining the race as a democrat, good to see that, at least Clinton will be challenged and he'll bring up issues that need to be addressed. I always liked Sanders and what he stood for, don't know enough about him personally to say that he's qualified for the job but it's a good move for him to get in the race.

he's a champ. been a rabble rouser since his days at UChicago. one of the few decent human beings to come out of that school...

 

[TheVictors]

Every election I enter that voting booth and ask myself one question ...

How would I vote if Sbee were a single, Black mother living in the inner city.

 

[Michchamp]

Bernie Sanders joining the race as a democrat, good to see that, at least Clinton will be challenged and he'll bring up issues that need to be addressed. I always liked Sanders and what he stood for, don't know enough about him personally to say that he's qualified for the job but it's a good move for him to get in the race.

I'm sure you can find some of his speeches on youtube. he's very direct and passionate about what he advocates, and of course, generally ignored by ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc

 

[Michchamp]

Every election I enter that voting booth and ask myself one question ...

How would I vote if Sbee were a single, Black mother living in the inner city.

so you've been voting for Mitt Romney since the 90's, I take it.

 

[Michchamp]

All I'm hearing is who would make a horrible president.... Who would make a good one? ...

that depends on whether you are a Koch Brother or not.

 

[grandy]

Bernie Sanders joining the race as a democrat, good to see that, at least Clinton will be challenged and he'll bring up issues that need to be addressed. I always liked Sanders and what he stood for, don't know enough about him personally to say that he's qualified for the job but it's a good move for him to get in the race.

Used to listen to his weekly interview with Thom Hartmann. Seems like a good guy that genuinely cares about the young, seniors, and middle/lower class. I never got the vibe that he was just a puppet for his donors, unlike most of the other candidates in this race. You can argue whether his proposed policies would actually work, but he always seemed more sincere than your typical politician. Unfortunately this doesn't help him in this era of presidential elections, where candidates are just figureheads and the whole process is not much different than horse racing.

 

[Spartanmack]

All I'm hearing is who would make a horrible president.... Who would make a good one? Certainly not anyone in this crop, from either party.

I'm not excited about anyone. But I just saw Bernie Sanders joined the race - the circus is getting better and better.

 

[TheVictors]

so you've been voting for Mitt Romney since the 90's, I take it.

Write him in every time.

Romney/Giuliani

 

[Spartanmack]

Used to listen to his weekly interview with Thom Hartmann. Seems like a good guy that genuinely cares about the young, seniors, and middle/lower class. I never got the vibe that he was just a puppet for his donors, unlike most of the other candidates in this race. You can argue whether his proposed policies would actually work, but he always seemed more sincere than your typical politician. Unfortunately this doesn't help him in this era of presidential elections, where candidates are just figureheads and the whole process is not much different than horse racing.

I don't doubt his sincerity or his independence but he is a self-proclaimed socialist who wants to implement the policies that failed so miserably in Europe. I don't think he's in it for personal enrichment like the Clintons, Obamas and Bushes, but I'm diametrically opposed to what he would do if he could win the election and actually get anything done. I don't think he can win the election and if he did, I doubt he'd be able to get much of his far left policies implemented. I think his candidacy is a distraction - at best it forces Clinton to go more left temporarily in the primary.

 

[Michchamp]

I don't doubt his sincerity or his independence but he is a self-proclaimed socialist who wants to implement the policies that failed so miserably in Europe. ...

this is one of those statements you throw out there that are never explained or justified.

how exactly has socialism failed in Europe? there's not a single socialist country there, although most of the Northern countries have higher tax rates, and lower income inequality. they also have free college, universal healthcare, among other benefits. and the people who live there are pretty fucking happy living there and have no incentive to move to America (even though America is #1.)

Are you going to cite Greece (also not a socialist country) as an example of "socialism failing"? Cause that's not what happened there either.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Man this thread caught traction since the inevitable happened.

 

[Michchamp]

Used to listen to his weekly interview with Thom Hartmann. Seems like a good guy that genuinely cares about the young, seniors, and middle/lower class. I never got the vibe that he was just a puppet for his donors, unlike most of the other candidates in this race. You can argue whether his proposed policies would actually work, but he always seemed more sincere than your typical politician. Unfortunately this doesn't help him in this era of presidential elections, where candidates are just figureheads and the whole process is not much different than horse racing.

you might be interested in reading a couple articles on Elizabeth Warren & her relationship to Hillary Clinton from the New Yorker.

This recent one really details Warren's research throughout her career, how it focused on bankruptcy and how this much-ignored & politicized issue has gutted the middle class since the 80's. I thought it was interesting how in the 90's Warren's opposition to the bankruptcy reform being pushed by credit card issuers and banks killed it, with an assist from Hillary (Bill vetoed it), though senator Clinton voted FOR it just a couple years later... and that double-cross more or less motivated Warren to go into politics.

this one is older, and interestingly notes that Warren was a Republican until her 40's.

 

[Spartanmack]

this is one of those statements you throw out there that are never explained or justified.

how exactly has socialism failed in Europe? there's not a single socialist country there, although most of the Northern countries have higher tax rates, and lower income inequality. they also have free college, universal healthcare, among other benefits. and the people who live there are pretty fucking happy living there and have no incentive to move to America (even though America is #1.)

Are you going to cite Greece (also not a socialist country) as an example of "socialism failing"? Cause that's not what happened there either.

Yes, it is what happened in Greece and it is what happened in Portugal, Italy, Ireland, and Spain. It's often referred to by economists and the financial press as European Style Socialism. They may not be purely socialist countries but they have many socialist policies and are far more socialist than the US - for example, what you call "free" (LOL) college and healthcare, outrageously generous welfare and retirement benefits, as well as many state owned enterprises like airlines, utilities and so on. They all failed miserably and regardless of what bullshit reason Paul Krugman or Thomas Piketty give you, it's because of these unsustainable socialist policies.

 

[Michchamp]

Man this thread caught traction since the inevitable happened.

I know right? A liberal extremist (me) makes a thread attacking the Democratic candidate front runner, and some people can't even find common ground over that, using it as their own soap box to rant about their Fox News issues.

 

[biggunsbob]

You called me dumb - if you're disrespectful to me, I'll be disrespectful right back. And let's rehash who is deflecting - we were talking about Candidates for the democratic primary and I said Warren is an idiot, your response was she is smarter than Reagan. Reagan has been dead for 11 years - he's not a candidate for the Democratic Party primary. That's deflecting. I was too young to vote for Reagan in '80 and '84. I happen to think he was the greatest President of my lifetime but he has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand - that's a topic for another thread. If you want to play thumb's game by calling me names, changing the subject or deflecting arguments and then accuse me of calling you names and deflecting arguments go ahead. But you shouldn't be surprised when I show you the same level of respect you show me.

What I want is also a topic for another thread but briefly, to name a few I want:

Accountability
Term limits
Tax reform
Welfare reform
Freedom of religion
Privacy

And your claim about taxes being slashed since the fifties is simply incorrect. With a few exceptions (mostly recessions) US Treasury revenues have increased every year since 1950 and have remained fairly constant as a % of GDP. In the 25 years since I graduated from MSU, revenues have tripled - that's a growth rate of roughly 5.5%, way outpacing inflation. Taxes have NOT been slashed.

You are are always disrespecting posters.. Nothing new there.. Pretty sure I was blasting Corporate tax rates since the 50's in my post. I guess I should have been more clear. So do corporations have enough tax breaks or do they need more? BTW Reagan was not a great president.. It's never enough for you guys slash them all.. Give us unbridled Capitalism and see what happens.. Chicago boys tried that a few times to Poor results..

 

[Spartanmack]

You are are always disrespecting posters.. Nothing new there.. Pretty sure I was blasting Corporate tax rates since the 50's in my post. I guess I should have been more clear. So do corporations have enough tax breaks or do they need more? BTW Reagan was not a great president.. It's never enough for you guys slash them all.. Give us unbridled Capitalism and see what happens.. Chicago boys tried that a few times to Poor results..

well, the corporate tax rate should be zero so you won't get any support for me on that argument. And we've never had true, let alone unbridled capitalism in this country in my lifetime. There has always been regulation and market interference that has hindered efficient allocation of capital and since at least the 90s it's been nothing but crony capitalism.

And I show the same level of respect to posters that they show me. If you think it's ok that you and certain other people are assholes to me because you don't agree with me, that's fine, I don't really care. if you're an asshole to me, I'll be an asshole right back.

 

[grandy]

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/wisconsin-straw-poll-surprise-a-narrow-clinton-win-118727.html

Wisconsin straw poll

Sanders just 8 points behind

I still lean towards "he doesn't have a shot", but this has me questioning that a little bit. I expected a lot of Dems to blindly vote for Hillary, but this may not be the case.

 

[Michchamp]

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/wisconsin-straw-poll-surprise-a-narrow-clinton-win-118727.html

Wisconsin straw poll

Sanders just 8 points behind

I still lean towards "he doesn't have a shot", but this has me questioning that a little bit. I expected a lot of Dems to blindly vote for Hillary, but this may not be the case.

when Kucinich ran and was still competitive ('04?) they started trotting out all sorts of wacky stories anout him to make him seem like the Ron Paul of the left. I don't know why they haven't really gone after Bernie Sanders the same way yet. I did see some blurb about an essay on sex he wrote while in college, that tried to make him sound like a rapist, but it didnt really go anywhere. maybe there really isn't anything on him. or it's too early.

or maybe Hillary's camp is afraid of attacking him and thereby driving progressives out of the party, toward the Green Party or something.

 

[zyxt9]

college papers are difficult to judge people on because of context...who knows what the assignment details were?

for example, my PoliSci teacher split me into a debate group assigned to present a case against homosexuality. my brother being gay, this was not my preferred position, but doing the assignment I used the traditional BS language/assertions/attacks. last day of school she "comes out" to the entire class (like we didn't know already, some don't exactly hide it well and she was one who made it obvious), and cries in front of all of us about how hurt she was by the comments made during that debate.

A-/B+ based on all tests/homework entering final (counting for 25% of final grade)...end up with a D for final grade. She and I did not get along the entire year. It was like Champ was my teacher...though he would have given me an F, so I guess I should be grateful. ;P

Point being, without the proper context, a college assignment should not be viewed as a person's actual opinions/views. Not trying to defend Sanders specifically, but anyone in that situation.

 

[turok]

when Kucinich ran and was still competitive ('04?) they started trotting out all sorts of wacky stories anout him to make him seem like the Ron Paul of the left. I don't know why they haven't really gone after Bernie Sanders the same way yet. I did see some blurb about an essay on sex he wrote while in college, that tried to make him sound like a rapist, but it didnt really go anywhere. maybe there really isn't anything on him. or it's too early.

or maybe Hillary's camp is afraid of attacking him and thereby driving progressives out of the party, toward the Green Party or something.

What was Obama's popular vote win over Romney? w/o looking it up I believe that it was ~4M. The GOP has 10 declared and may have as many as 20 or more candidates, which muddles the field FAR more than Dems with 4 declared and who may eventually have 7 or more.

Maybe the Hillary camp is waiting for Jeb to declare before they decide on any plan of attack on Sanders. Like you posted, They don't want to push fence-sitters to the GOP or to an independent party, or to Sanders himself. After or if Jeb declares, then the Hillary camp could publicly state that a primary vote for Sanders is ultimately a vote for Jeb, should she as result, lose the Democratic nomination.