Nothing on Governor Snyder and Flint?

[Spartanmack]

I get it. I want this to clearly be someone's fault (because you don't want this to just be a thing that happens.) So, of course, I want to know who's fault. But with stakes this high, I'll be patient.

Never did like Snyder anyway. The whole government swooping in with an emergency manager seemed like a very non-conservative, undemocratic, Big Government thing to do to me.

This seems like too big of a mess with too many moving parts and different stages (the faulty water study, the initial decision, the denial phase, a potential cover up, etc, etc) to be one person's fault. I never lived in or near Flint and haven't lived in Michigan for 23 years so who did what isn't all that important to me. I'd rather see this effort being spent on partisan bickering (mostly to place blame on Snyder, it seems) redirected to fixing the problem.

 

[Michchamp]

This politically oriented arguing over this topic is what this board is for, but I hope we get a legit criminal investigation to figure out whether or not people need to go to jail for this. That kind of thinking comes from the degree of the damage done and a feeling that someone must be at fault more than evidence of a law being broken...and I know that's dangerous...but wow, it's difficult to be dispassionate about this.

u won't get that from Bill "gay marriage and pot are ruining America" Schuette.

The investigation will have to come from the Feds. The Michigan executive and judiciary are bad jokes.

 

[Michchamp]

This seems like too big of a mess with too many moving parts and different stages (the faulty water study, the initial decision, the denial phase, a potential cover up, etc, etc) to be one person's fault. I never lived in or near Flint and haven't lived in Michigan for 23 years so who did what isn't all that important to me. I'd rather see this effort being spent on partisan bickering (mostly to place blame on Snyder, it seems) redirected to fixing the problem.

idiot.

it's not complicated: it all goes back to Snyder.

if this really wasn't his fault, and could be pinned on the Democrats, it would've been all over Fox News last January... you would not see Snyder doing damage control now in 2016.

 

[Spartanmack]

idiot.

it's not complicated: it all goes back to Snyder.

if this really wasn't his fault, and could be pinned on the Democrats, it would've been all over Fox News last January... you would not see Snyder doing damage control now in 2016.

Yes, it ALL goes back to a guy who wasn't personally involved in the decision nor was anyone from his office or anyone he appointed Emergency Manager because...an idiot on the internet says so. And his proof...Snyder is defending himself against the accusations AND apparently it wasn't covered by FOX news. If that's not proof of his guilt and EVERY Dems innocence, I don't know what else would convince anyone he is evil or incompetent or both. That is the weakest (and funniest) argument you've posted on here in a long time - and that is saying a lot. You are so desperate to pin this on a Republican you can't see what an ass you're making of yourself - again.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - you are one pathetic loser. Looking forward to you accusing me of name calling after you've been doing it for a few pages now. Assclown.

 

[hailhail]

The Flint City Council clearly had power and in March 2013, when there was no Emergency Manager in office, they voted 7-1 for the KWA plan. Is it your contention that was just a symbolic vote? Calling them red herrings so you can dismiss them offhand despite obvious facts to the contrary, doesn't make them red herrings.

Where are you getting this information?

Flint was under emergency management for over a year at that point--starting in the last month of 2011. So yes, the council's powers were at best symbolic (see timeline here, or like a thousand other news sources: http://michiganradio.org/post/repor...isinformed-over-flint-river-decision#stream/0 ).

And even though the council voted to go with the KWA, that has nothing to do with the decision to use the Flint River as a water source. That authorization very clearly came from the EFM's office.

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.ne...ion.pdf?_ga=1.129405580.1036207224.1446746452

This is the best breakdown I've seen to date: http://bridgemi.com/2016/01/who-approved-switch-to-flint-river-states-answers-draw-fouls/

Edit: looks like Andy Dillon--State Treasurer under Snyder--gave the ultimate approval for Flint to go with the KWA. Though, once again, this has nothing to do with the decisions regarding the Flint River.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/20/snyder-flint-emails/79062418/

 

[Spartanmack]

Where are you getting this information?

Flint was under emergency management for over a year at that point--starting in the last month of 2011. So yes, the council's powers were at best symbolic (see timeline here, or like a thousand other news sources: http://michiganradio.org/post/repor...isinformed-over-flint-river-decision#stream/0 ).

And even though the council voted to go with the KWA, that has nothing to do with the decision to use the Flint River as a water source. That authorization very clearly came from the EFM's office.

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.ne...ion.pdf?_ga=1.129405580.1036207224.1446746452

This is the best breakdown I've seen to date: http://bridgemi.com/2016/01/who-approved-switch-to-flint-river-states-answers-draw-fouls/

Edit: looks like Andy Dillon--State Treasurer under Snyder--gave the ultimate approval for Flint to go with the KWA. Though, once again, this has nothing to do with the decisions regarding the Flint River.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/20/snyder-flint-emails/79062418/

From this which states that Michael Brown was Emergency Manager from December 2011 through August 2012:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Brown_(Michigan_politician)

and this which indicates his successor, Darnel Earley was appointed in September of 2013.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darnell_Earley

Earley also indicates in an email sent to the Flint Journal/M-Live that he was not involved in the decision and that the decision was made prior to his appointment. He further indicates he had no reason at the time to second-guess what appeared to have been a consensus decision.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/ex_emergency_manager_earley_sa.html

I haven't seen a single piece quoting anyone from the Mayor's office or the City Council accusing the Emergency Manager of unilaterally deciding to switch from Detroit to Flint River water. There are no emails, no letters, memos or other evidence to indicate this was anything other than a consensus decision by the elected officials of Flint. At best, the EM missed an opportunity to reverse the decision of the Council but even if that's the case, he is at best on partially to blame.

 

[hailhail]

The Detroit News article I listed above pretty clearly indicates that the final decision to break off from DWSD ran through Dillon's office. There's essentially no local control under PA 436 (only to the extent that the State allows it).

There are no emails, no letters, memos or other evidence to indicate this was anything other than a consensus decision by the elected officials of Flint. At best, the EM missed an opportunity to reverse the decision of the Council but even if that's the case, he is at best on partially to blame.

And is there any evidence showing it was the consensus decision by the elected officials of Flint? The directive to draw from the Flint River and the notification to DWSD that Flint intended to draw from the Flint River both came directly from Kurtz and Earley, respectively.

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.ne...ion.pdf?_ga=1.129405580.1036207224.1446746452

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.ne...ter.pdf?_ga=1.224901786.1036207224.1446746452

There's no doubt there's TONS of blame to go around here--I've posted somewhere previously (maybe early in this thread?) about the previous mayor's eventual endorsement of the project based on stories I've heard from his staffers, but you're fooling yourself if you think this was solely (much less largely) a decision made by local elected officials. That's not how Emergency Financial Management works around these parts.

 

[Michchamp]

The Detroit News article I listed above pretty clearly indicates that the final decision to break off from DWSD ran through Dillon's office. There's essentially no local control under PA 436 (only to the extent that the State allows it).



And is there any evidence showing it was the consensus decision by the elected officials of Flint? The directive to draw from the Flint River and the notification to DWSD that Flint intended to draw from the Flint River both came directly from Kurtz and Earley, respectively.

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.ne...ion.pdf?_ga=1.129405580.1036207224.1446746452

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.ne...ter.pdf?_ga=1.224901786.1036207224.1446746452

There's no doubt there's TONS of blame to go around here--I've posted somewhere previously (maybe early in this thread?) about the previous mayor's eventual endorsement of the project based on stories I've heard from his staffers, but you're fooling yourself if you think this was solely (much less largely) a decision made by local elected officials. That's not how Emergency Financial Management works around these parts.

on the radio today, they talked about this, and someone said the EM law Snyder signed specifically gives the EM, once appointed, all the power the elected officials he replaced had.

so yeah, this came down to the EM's decision. Nobody else could have made that decision at the time. this "well it's complicated, and no one can really tell" bullshit from spartanracist is absurd.

I don't know how much of a role Snyder's administration played in the decision beyond appointing the EM, but presumably it was some. I don't get the sense you get appointed EM if you have any sort of independent streak in you.

 

[hailhail]

on the radio today, they talked about this, and someone said the EM law Snyder signed specifically gives the EM, once appointed, all the power the elected officials he replaced had.

so yeah, this came down to the EM's decision. Nobody else could have made that decision at the time. this "well it's complicated, and no one can really tell" bullshit from spartanracist is absurd.

I don't know how much of a role Snyder's administration played in the decision beyond appointing the EM, but presumably it was some. I don't get the sense you get appointed EM if you have any sort of independent streak in you.

Pshhhhhhh all the power elected officials have and then some (including the ability to break existing agreements with public collective bargaining units and avert local laws).

 

[Michchamp]

MichiganRadio reporting that the EPA is now investigating how the state Environmental agency and city gamed the testing results. Remember they were saying it was safe to drink while independent tests were showing lead levels off the charts.

these people are twisted.

 

[tomdalton22]

this has been a cluster fuck since day one. I read an article that says a lot of cities have terrible water delivery systems that need replaced but don't have the money.

 

[Gulo Blue]

this has been a cluster fuck since day one. I read an article that says a lot of cities have terrible water delivery systems that need replaced but don't have the money.

That's what's so crazy. We have a lot of infrastructure that needs repairing and then we sit on our hands and wonder how we're going to improve the economy and create jobs.

Maybe we should spend more resources sending young people to the other side of the world to win hearts and minds.

 

[Gulo Blue]

What I mean by that is fixing this stuff only appears expensive. When a lot of the cost of a project is labor that has to be done locally, it's one of the best things government can spend money on. That money's not gone after it's spent.

Maybe Flint doesn't have the money, so there are real problems getting money from the right places to the right places, but this is one of the first things our taxes should be going to. And if that means too much goes to the federal or state government that needs to go to cities, we need to work that out. That's not trivial.

 

[Michchamp]

What I mean by that is fixing this stuff only appears expensive. When a lot of the cost of a project is labor that has to be done locally, it's one of the best things government can spend money on. That money's not gone after it's spent.

Maybe Flint doesn't have the money, so there are real problems getting money from the right places to the right places, but this is one of the first things our taxes should be going to. And if that means too much goes to the federal or state government that needs to go to cities, we need to work that out. That's not trivial.

whoa-ho, easy there. sounds like you're advocating BIG GOVERNMENT, and we all know that's bad. I mean Republitard politicans and pundits have been telling us that for years, and they must know what they're talking about, right??

 

[zyxt9]

The infrastructure is terrible throughout the entire US, not just Flint.

This is loosely similar to when that bridge collapsed in Minnesota several years ago and suddenly the feds start inspecting bridges throughout the US and find out many are in need of serious repair or complete replacement. There are many bridges by me that began getting replaced soon after that, and they are still working on others.

The hope here is that cities will now be forced into fixing their neglected systems because they won't want to be the next Flint. That would bring a silver lining to this mess. It is unfortunate such irresponsible political and financial stupidity continually results in citizens being killed or made extremely sick, and neither party...nor any independent/3rd party...is deserving of a pass on this, because it IS prevalent throughout the US.

Pointing fingers can come later, right now people need to focus on fixing the mess created by irresponsible politicians and financial "experts" in every city.

 

[zyxt9]

whoa-ho, easy there. sounds like you're advocating BIG GOVERNMENT, and we all know that's bad. I mean Republitard politicans and pundits have been telling us that for years, and they must know what they're talking about, right??

Time and place.

Eisenhower created the initiative that developed the interstate system. FDR created the initiative for hydroelectric power. Those and similar initiatives have a relatively short term large scale impact followed up with a smaller scale maintenance impact. Those types of "big government" initiatives are often necessary and are examples of why it is important to have federal resources available.

Repairing the water infrastructures should be aided by the feds so that there can be a national level of requirements / minimum standards, but the cities and states need to chip in as it has been largely due to their neglect that these systems have degraded. If the feds don't contribute, having a national standard changes to each city/state setting levels they feel are good enough. No US citizen should have to research whether or not the water is safe to drink when they travel, there should just be a national minimum that is safe and monitored consistently for compliance. Obviously there will be corrupted individuals from time to time, which is why I would prefer the testing be carried out at random and no single individual tests the same location twice in a row (or some other rotation that reduces the chances for corruption).

But I'm Moderate, so I see times when big government is good and times when it is bad...according to my beliefs and opinions.

 

[Gulo Blue]

whoa-ho, easy there. sounds like you're advocating BIG GOVERNMENT, and we all know that's bad. I mean Republitard politicans and pundits have been telling us that for years, and they must know what they're talking about, right??

We already have big government. This is one of the things they should be doing. And of course I mean they should bid the work out to private companies.

 

[tomdalton22]

http://www.waff.com/story/21222162/lawsuit-alledging-flints-water-rates-are-unlawful-goes-to-judge

 

[Gulo Blue]

And some big government is also needed to balance the power of big business. I've said it before. No surprises here.

 

[Sbee]

good to know that the republican candidates really care about flint, what a guy that ted cruz

http://www.salon.com/2016/01/21/ted...er_in_flint_but_only_to_anti_abortion_groups/