OT Yes, God does speak to me (and others)

[KAWDUP]

By that logic, i should also be jewish and muslim. Why do u believe? It's what u were taught, not what you learned. If you were born in Aghanistan, you'd be Muslim and you could give me the exact same reasons for believing in God. We choose to believe because we don't like the idea of being alone, without guidance in our life. When you let go and realize that you control your life and aren't limited by an invisible god, it feels amazing.

Well of course I control my own life - I have free will, just as we all do. I also don't feel limited in any way - certainly not by God. Perhaps you don't believe because you somehow think it limits you?

Actually what I was taught was strict Baltimore catechism. I have since been on quite a journey of discovery. My views have changed dramatically since my youth, barring as you know a sincere belief in God.

I will grant you one thing though. I sure can't imagine a world where God does not exist - and I mostly certainly think that if such a world existed, it would be one of the most undesirable of all worlds.

 

[Monster]

Well of course I control my own life - I have free will, just as we all do. I also don't feel limited in any way - certainly not by God. Perhaps you don't believe because you somehow think it limits you?

Actually what I was taught was strict Baltimore catechism. I have since been on quite a journey of discovery. My views have changed dramatically since my youth, barring as you know a sincere belief in God.

I will grant you one thing though. I sure can't imagine a world where God does not exist - and I mostly certainly think that if such a world existed, it would be one of the most undesirable of all worlds.

Why would it be undesirable? What would change? Bad people will do bad with or without God. Good people will be good with or without God. If we need God to be good, humanity is doomed.

 

[KAWDUP]

Why would it be undesirable? What would change? Bad people will do bad with or without God. Good people will be good with or without God. If we need God to be good, humanity is doomed.

Well, free will explains the second half of what you say. Do you really think believers need God to be good? You say right at the beginning that God isn't necessary for that. Except for the fact that you need free will to explain it, I don't think we are doomed at all.

As far as why it would be undesirable. Think of all the great and wonderful things we have due to this belief. Salvation, forgiveness for our sins, an ever-lasting soul, miracles, etc. (there is more too) - I say that is some pretty amazing stuff.

So you can't see why a believer would say a world without those things is pretty undesirable?

 

[Michchamp]

this thread is still goin?

 

[KAWDUP]

this thread is still goin?

Is Brady Hoke the head football coach at the University of Michigan?

 

[redandguilty]

this thread is still goin?

Yup. People can't see the evidence right in front of them. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that Thee Ohio State University was not his handiwork, proof-positive of his existence.

 

[RABID]

Yup. People can't see the evidence right in front of them. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that Thee Ohio State University was not his handiwork, proof-positive of his existence.

And now you know why ohio stadium is in the shape of a cloven hoof. :nod:

 

[RABID]

Oooo- Oooo- Have you ever seen the Ohio entry on wikia.com?
Sure, elementary students have updated it but the overall concept there is dead on.

http://wikiality.wikia.com/Ohio

Capital: A massive O
State Flower Ohio State Blows!!!!!!!!
Official Language: Jon Stewartese
State Bird: Warbling Peckerwood.
State Motto: Nothin to see since 1803!
Nickname: Round on the ends and "HI" in the middle.
King: None; Jim Tressel was recently deposed.
State Anthem: Three Blind Mice
Population: More than enough.
Principal imports: Methamphetamine ingredients.
Principal exports: Methamphetamine.
Principal industries: Meth cooking, law enforcement.
Fun Fact # 1: Ohioans enjoy playing a game called cornhole.
Fun Fact # 2: Ohio has a monument to Col. Crawford, a soldier who was burned alive by Injuns.
Football record against Michigan: 1 trillion losses

 

[Monster]

Well, free will explains the second half of what you say. Do you really think believers need God to be good? You say right at the beginning that God isn't necessary for that. Except for the fact that you need free will to explain it, I don't think we are doomed at all.

As far as why it would be undesirable. Think of all the great and wonderful things we have due to this belief. Salvation, forgiveness for our sins, an ever-lasting soul, miracles, etc. (there is more too) - I say that is some pretty amazing stuff.

So you can't see why a believer would say a world without those things is pretty undesirable?

I don't think that all believers need God to be good. But, ask yourself why it'd be so bad without God. Why would it get worse if there is free will and, as you imply, believers don't need God to be good. Salvation? Again, in a world without God, you don't need Salvation. You have one life to live and it's up to you how you want to live it. What you do in this life actually matters, because it's the only one you have.

Well, your belief makes you feel better. So, in a sense, religion is a good thing. Christians always talk about sin and being forgiven for sin. What does this mean? If there is no god, then sin is just sin. It's something that would be determined to be bad. If you commit sin, it's up to you to right your wrongs. You can't just "find" God while in prison and suddenly be a good guy (or woman).

Everlasting soul? Ask all of the good non-christians that will be going to Hell if they want an everlasting soul while they are burned and tortured. Miracles? What miracles? I've yet to see anything that can actually be considered a miracle that is unexplainable. However, I do see massive Earthquakes that kill thousands of innocent people, hurricanes that destroy homes and misplace families, Tornadoes that level entire cities, and fires that sweep through huge areas of land, killing wildlife, burning down homes, and even killing people. These are not miracles.

I hope you have comfort in your religion, because every time I lose a friend or family member because they find out I'm an Atheist, I start to hate religion just a bit more. Every time I see a kid who is sick and his parents use prayer as medical treatment, I hate religion a little bit more. Every time I see an abortion clinic bombed because of some idiot radical Christian, I hate religion just a bit more. Every time I see a Muslim blow himself to kill others, I hate religion a bit more.

Sure, some atheists are assholes. Hell, a lot of us are, but you won't find many of us that want to kill people because they believe in something different than we do. You won't find many of us that will try to take away a right that every human being should have.

Point is, I see religion as more of an impediment to peace than a help.

 

[redandguilty]

I hope you have comfort in your religion, because every time I lose a friend or family member because they find out I'm an Atheist, I start to hate religion just a bit more. Every time I see a kid who is sick and his parents use prayer as medical treatment, I hate religion a little bit more. Every time I see an abortion clinic bombed because of some idiot radical Christian, I hate religion just a bit more. Every time I see a Muslim blow himself to kill others, I hate religion a bit more.

Do you count our good deeds as positives or just count the negatives like MC? Is it more valid to attribute the bad to religion and assume that that good stuff we would have done anyway or attribute the good to religion and assume we would have found some other excuse to do bad stuff?

 

[Monster]

Do you count our good deeds as positives or just count the negatives like MC? Is it more valid to attribute the bad to religion and assume that that good stuff we would have done anyway or attribute the good to religion and assume we would have found some other excuse to do bad stuff?

Oh, no. Don't get me wrong. Many religious people do good things. That's good for them, but I don't see them going around and claiming that their religion is the reason they do these good things. Sure, they say that they work through god and all glory goes to him. Stuff along those lines. But, I've never heard one religious person say that they do good things because they have religion.

On the other hand, you hear people in the examples I gave you claiming that they do or believe in the awful things they do because of their beliefs. Examples...


"Gay people can't get married. It's unnatural and against the teachings of the bible. A man can not lay with another man as he would with a woman. God created adam and eve. Not Adam and Steve."

"These doctors kill our unborn babies. They are murderers in the eyes of God."

A Muslim drives his car into a crowd of people. Says a prayer and shouts the praises of Allah before setting off the bomb that kills dozens of innocents.

My cousin, who I've been close to since birth, refuses to talk to me because I don't believe in God. He's not the only one. I've been called a devil worshiper, told that I would go to Hell and be tortured next to sex offenders and murderers. I've been told that I'm not allowed to see my niece because I might try to turn her away from God. Now, from your point of view, how would you feel about religion?

Now, when was the last time you heard of an Atheist trying to take away your rights or to kill you or basically disown you because you believe in God?

 

[redandguilty]

Now, when was the last time you heard of an Atheist trying to take away your rights or to kill you or basically disown you because you believe in God?

USSR and China...anywhere Marxist.

Regarding the rest, it's been pretty well documented that religion and charity are strongly correlated. You might not count money to a church a charity, but the people making the donation do and I think intent matters. Also, even if you don't count most religious costs and have a very narrow interpretation of what counts, it wouldn't matter. The correlation is very strong. I think Catholic Charities USA raises a couple billion from its members each year and spends the vast bulk of that on services. That's not everything they do, just the main branch. And Catholics are just the moderates.

 

[redandguilty]

But regarding your own family, it easy to understand why your strongest impressions of religion are the way they are. I'm sorry to hear people react that way. I personally think they've got it wrong and you probably get that it's frustrating to feel like you're expected to own their behavior when you say you're religious.

I have no idea what the norm is, how often families are like that, but I don't believe it's an indicator of the fundamental goodness or badness of all religion any more than I believe our government's implementation of a democratic republic is indicative of the fundamental rightness or wrongness of that idea or other forms of government. It's more an indication of the practical limitations of people than anything. Some work better and some don't work as well, but that doesn't say anything about any ultimate truths with any certainty.

 

[Monster]

USSR and China...anywhere Marxist.

Regarding the rest, it's been pretty well documented that religion and charity are strongly correlated. You might not count money to a church a charity, but the people making the donation do and I think intent matters. Also, even if you don't count most religious costs and have a very narrow interpretation of what counts, it wouldn't matter. The correlation is very strong. I think Catholic Charities USA raises a couple billion from its members each year and spends the vast bulk of that on services. That's not everything they do, just the main branch. And Catholics are just the moderates.

The ussr and china weren't evil because they were atheists. They were evil because they restricted freedom of religion to keep control and of course what they did to their own people.

Ill respond to the rest when i can get on my laptop.

 

[redandguilty]

The ussr and china weren't evil because they were atheists.

For pretty much any abuse done in the name of any -ism you can find people that say that's not what that -ism stands for. That goes for your personal anecdotes too. Whatever religion we're talking about, I think it's safe to say there's someone from that religion that would say your cousin is doing it wrong.

 

[KAWDUP]

Oh, no. Don't get me wrong. Many religious people do good things. That's good for them, but I don't see them going around and claiming that their religion is the reason they do these good things. Sure, they say that they work through god and all glory goes to him. Stuff along those lines. But, I've never heard one religious person say that they do good things because they have religion.

On the other hand, you hear people in the examples I gave you claiming that they do or believe in the awful things they do because of their beliefs. Examples...


"Gay people can't get married. It's unnatural and against the teachings of the bible. A man can not lay with another man as he would with a woman. God created adam and eve. Not Adam and Steve."

"These doctors kill our unborn babies. They are murderers in the eyes of God."

A Muslim drives his car into a crowd of people. Says a prayer and shouts the praises of Allah before setting off the bomb that kills dozens of innocents.

My cousin, who I've been close to since birth, refuses to talk to me because I don't believe in God. He's not the only one. I've been called a devil worshiper, told that I would go to Hell and be tortured next to sex offenders and murderers. I've been told that I'm not allowed to see my niece because I might try to turn her away from God. Now, from your point of view, how would you feel about religion?

Now, when was the last time you heard of an Atheist trying to take away your rights or to kill you or basically disown you because you believe in God?

You have discussed most of this with others on this thread, so I won't reiterate what they have said. What I will do is provide one small insight. Your family members who are judging you are in the wrong. Only God can judge you. The fact that they do it in the name of religion is really not religion's fault per se, but more how they have been taught incorrectly maybe even by false prophets. Your relationship with God is personal, and that they would keep a family member from you because of their own jaded beliefs is quite a bummer, but it also reiterates what I have been saying all along. They also have free will and their exercising of it is actually damaging to you, but again really not the fault of God, as that certainly isn't any part of Jesus' teaching.

 

[Michchamp]

For pretty much any abuse done in the name of any -ism you can find people that say that's not what that -ism stands for. That goes for your personal anecdotes too. Whatever religion we're talking about, I think it's safe to say there's someone from that religion that would say your cousin is doing it wrong.

we've been through this before, on the politics board, I believe. you and monster should check into that thread to continue this line of discussion there.

 

[redandguilty]

I believe

editing mine.

 

[RABID]

I agree with what Monster is saying concerning the relationship between doing good, and being religious. Religion and society both have standards of what is right or wrong, good or bad. You do not need religion to be good or to do good deeds. Virtue, Morality and Piety are mutally exclusive.
Just ask Socrates. He did such a good job of proving it to the theocracy that he was put to death.

Society guides morality and dictates what is acceptable and what is wrong. Religion is not necessary to determine morality, especially when several different religions are involved. In fact, the two will often contradict each other.

Pious individuals will look down their noses at atheists and tell them goodness is determined by god, when in reality they are no different than the hybrid driving yuppy preaching global warming to the soccer mom next door as she loads her 5 kids into the Suburban. No matter how strongly you believe in something, your beliefs do not constitute truth.

 

[redandguilty]

I agree with what Monster is saying concerning the relationship between doing good, and being religious. Religion and society both have standards of what is right or wrong, good or bad. You do not need religion to be good or to do good deeds. Virtue, Morality and Piety are mutally exclusive.
Just ask Socrates. He did such a good job of proving it to the theocracy that he was put to death.

Society guides morality and dictates what is acceptable and what is wrong. Religion is not necessary to determine morality, especially when several different religions are involved. In fact, the two will often contradict each other.

Pious individuals will look down their noses at atheists and tell them goodness is determined by god, when in reality they are no different than the hybrid driving yuppy preaching global warming to the soccer mom next door as she loads her 5 kids into the Suburban. No matter how strongly you believe in something, your beliefs do not constitute truth.

That's all fine, just use the same standard for good and bad, religion and non.