OT Yes, God does speak to me (and others)

[Monster]

I am sorry to enter now, as there is much great discussion here, but I have a few things to add:

Christians are Christians because they believe in Christ - that is different than most of these things you are bringing up of the vengeful God from the Old Testament. I don't want to over-simplify anything, but one of the main themes in the Old Testament is the covenant that God made with Abraham. As was stated, the context of what you are reading/posting is very important. I would like to point out that most Christians relate more to the New Testament and its teachings - I think that is where you are getting the dichotomy of the view of heaven and who is there.

Philosophers have been debating for centuries the very simple question - is heaven crowded or sparse? Entire libraries exist attempting to answer this question.

But let me throw this one out there. Is heaven even a place you go? I know it is comforting to believe that it is, but I was always taught that heaven is a state of being, not a place that you go. What part of you actually exists in heaven - your body and soul, or maybe just your soul, or is just our body because we really have no soul? Our understanding of all of these things are jaded by man's description of them, and by their nature will be imperfect, so it is a very difficult subject to discuss. I think there is quite a bit of trying to bring these issues into our human terms, so it is easy to imagine how one could poke a hole in some of the descriptions here.

Anyway, just thought I would throw that out there - I fully expect to be ignored. :*)

Heaven is a difficult place to understand. The bible is very vague and mostly describes it as the place where God dwells. When I was a Christian, I believed it to be on Earth, but on a different plane of consciousness - like a dream, almost. Something where when you died you would go to. There's obviously no Heaven in the sky and the idea that Heaven is at the center of the universe is ridiculous since we are so far away from it. But, I guess it'd be possible.

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

No, that is frickin' amazing. I agree.

Although, it doesn't need the help of God for that to happen. My car broke down back in 2002. And I know absolutely nothing about cars, so forgive me about this part...I needed something replaced in my car. I forget what it was, but it was very expensive. One of my neighbors had a car that had been sitting in their driveway that wouldn't start for over a year. I was going to take my car to the shop to get it fixed and pay a buttload of money for, but he stopped me. Whatever the part was, it was compatible with my car so, he replaced it for me, basically a swap. instead of paying a huge amount of money, I got the part for a case of beer and a few slices of pizza.

Didn't pray once.

The fact that your friend knew about the junkyard isn't a huge surprise. I would assume he knew about it before you prayed...right? God didn't tell him? Buick centuries are/were a fairly common car and I can guess that most cars of that size have tires that would fit your car. Again, I'm not a car guy, so forgive the lack of knowledge. You were in a junkyard, a place where cars go to die. If that century wasn't there, it would have been another one and you still would have gotten cheap tires. The fact that they were brand new is just a bonus, but not at all proof that god exists or that prayer works.

Here's my problem with prayer. If a prayer is answered, no matter how simple of the request, then it must have been God. No matter if you worked hard to get the job that you wanted, god had to have helped you. If a prayer is unanswered, "Well, God doesn't answer everyone's prayers." Meanwhile, millions of homeless, sick, and starving humans pray every single day for help and nothing is given. You can't possibly tell me that God cared more about your tires than he does about those people?

All I'm asking is for one thing that actually gives some kind of proof of God's existence. I've never seen one thing. And anything that looks like a miracle is usually either a hoax or something that can be figured out through science.

Prayer = hope. I understand that. I would never tell someone not to pray. But, if I'm laying in a hospital bed, sick, I'd rather have the doctors on my side than a million prayers.

I used to be a car guy. I could name a dozen things under your hood that would have been compatible with his car.

Did he know about the junk yard????? Of course he did, he told me about it. BUT, what were the odds that he had a friend at THAT junk yard? There are dozens within half an hour drive of my old house. No, there were two bolt patterns for that year Buick Century and I had the less common one.

You mention science but disregard it. There is no way that the mathematical probability is within norms on this story. And, at this point, I've listed about eight stories that are above the mathematical probability of happening exactly how they did, where they did, when they did, with whom they did, when given specific information to bring all of those "coincidences" together. So you now have to multiply eight stories, each of them above statistical probability norms.

Also, as mentioned earlier in this thread, science has proven in blind studies that prayer absolutely has an affect on ill persons, so you are not being scientific with your rejection of prayer. These responses are not due to scientific considerations, they are built on your experience and proclivities.

 

[Monster]

I used to be a car guy. I could name a dozen things under your hood that would have been compatible with his car.

Did he know about the junk yard????? Of course he did, he told me about it. BUT, what were the odds that he had a friend at THAT junk yard? There are dozens within half an hour drive of my old house. No, there were two bolt patterns for that year Buick Century and I had the less common one.

You mention science but disregard it. There is no way that the mathematical probability is within norms on this story. And, at this point, I've listed about eight stories that are above the mathematical probability of happening exactly how they did, where they did, when they did, with whom they did, when given specific information to bring all of those "coincidences" together. So you now have to multiply eight stories, each of them above statistical probability norms.

Also, as mentioned earlier in this thread, science has proven in blind studies that prayer absolutely has an affect on ill persons, so you are not being scientific with your rejection of prayer. These responses are not due to scientific considerations, they are built on your experience and proclivities.

Ugh, your stories are nothing but coincidences. Sure, they might be a little strange, but they're all possible in this world. And I think you're making the odds tilt in the favor of prayer just because you believe so strongly in them.

Science has proven many things. I say that being surrounded by loved ones is what helps more than anything. The studies never take that into account. If you're sick and your family and friends are with you, it does help. It gives the sick something to live for and strengthens them. As I said, Prayer = hope. It doesn't mean that a god has answered the prayer. A family that surrounds their loved one usually prays, but it's not the prayer that helps. It's that the family is so close. There are too many variables in these instances that are never taken into account. If nobody shows up to see the sick person and prays from afar, do the prayers work? I doubt it.

There are many scientific studies that say it doesn't matter if prayer is involved or not. This is one of them.

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

The verses are instruction from God. That is clear even if I had quoted the whole chapter. The problem is that the verses instruct to kill anyone who tries to turn you from God. That is exactly what it says.

It doesn't matter who He is talking to.

I understand that you have a deep faith, but that faith is getting in the way of seeing the bible's words. To me, it is full of words that would have been written by Christians/Jews of that time. Not of an everliving god. It ruins credibility when someone like you tries to tell me that it's taken out of context.

The teachings of Jesus Christ are much different for the most part, but he also says a few things that I find a bit shady. Oh well. To each his own.

See the first bolded sentence with the underlined word? THAT is out of context. God did not tell ME to kill anyone, ever.

It absolutely matters who He is talking to, when He is talking to them, where He is talking to them, what He is talking to them about, and how He instructs them.

Does the scripture that tells the Israelites to cross the Jordan river also tell me to do so?

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

Ugh, your stories are nothing but coincidences. Sure, they might be a little strange, but they're all possible in this world. And I think you're making the odds tilt in the favor of prayer just because you believe so strongly in them.

Science has proven many things. I say that being surrounded by loved ones is what helps more than anything. The studies never take that into account. If you're sick and your family and friends are with you, it does help. It gives the sick something to live for and strengthens them. As I said, Prayer = hope. It doesn't mean that a god has answered the prayer. A family that surrounds their loved one usually prays, but it's not the prayer that helps. It's that the family is so close. There are too many variables in these instances that are never taken into account. If nobody shows up to see the sick person and prays from afar, do the prayers work? I doubt it.

There are many scientific studies that say it doesn't matter if prayer is involved or not. This is one of them.

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

I will have to check out the link later, I have to leave for a while.

You are giving SCIENTISTS very little credit in conducting studies. The ones I have seen have been people outside of the patients' families, praying in another part of the hospital, and WITHOUT THE PATIENTS KNOWLEDGE.

 

[Monster]

I will have to check out the link later, I have to leave for a while.

You are giving SCIENTISTS very little credit in conducting studies. The ones I have seen have been people outside of the patients' families, praying in another part of the hospital, and WITHOUT THE PATIENTS KNOWLEDGE.

There are a lot of studies and none of them prove prayer does or does not work. They always conflict because life is random and is impossible to come to a conclusion on. You can see the result of prayer not working in the thousands of kids that die every day because of a lack of food or medicine. How many people do you know that pray for them? I used to...every single day. Then, I actually started sponsoring these kids and I found that I could save 10-15 kids every single year just on my monetary and material donations like food, clothing, and healthcare. I'd say that that is doing more good for them than my prayers ever could have. That's not to mention everything I do in my own community, helping the kids and individual families here. I could pray or I could actually do something.

 

[Monster]

See the first bolded sentence with the underlined word? THAT is out of context. God did not tell ME to kill anyone, ever.

It absolutely matters who He is talking to, when He is talking to them, where He is talking to them, what He is talking to them about, and how He instructs them.

Does the scripture that tells the Israelites to cross the Jordan river also tell me to do so?

Okay okay. I get the point. I'll concede your point. Take it.

So, if God did not instruct YOU to kill, then he instructed others to kill because they had other religious beliefs and tried to teach these people about them.

Whether you like it or not, that is wrong. It's absolutely disgusting to think that my god would kill people for such silly reasons. I quoted a verse from Jesus a few pages back. If the bible was 100% like that, I'd have no problem following God if I knew him to be real. No problem at all. Unfortunately, it still includes a lot of immoral things that I am not okay with.

I've never been the most perfect person, as I've admitted before. But, I would never kill someone just because they tried to get me to become a member of their religion. If I wouldn't do that, I certainly wouldn't expect my spiritual leader (God) to do it.

 

[Monster]

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12082681/#.UfLq9G0QMng

A simplification of the study i linked to.

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

Ugh, your stories are nothing but coincidences. Sure, they might be a little strange, but they're all possible in this world. And I think you're making the odds tilt in the favor of prayer just because you believe so strongly in them.

Science has proven many things. I say that being surrounded by loved ones is what helps more than anything. The studies never take that into account. If you're sick and your family and friends are with you, it does help. It gives the sick something to live for and strengthens them. As I said, Prayer = hope. It doesn't mean that a god has answered the prayer. A family that surrounds their loved one usually prays, but it's not the prayer that helps. It's that the family is so close. There are too many variables in these instances that are never taken into account. If nobody shows up to see the sick person and prays from afar, do the prayers work? I doubt it.

There are many scientific studies that say it doesn't matter if prayer is involved or not. This is one of them.

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

(Lots of quote marks in this post. I put my words in red to help distinguish from the study.)

From the link:
"Everyone prayed for received the same standardized prayer."

Really? "Here, read this." is not a prayer. Matthew 6:7 "When you are praying, don't say meaningless things"

More from the link:
"Providing the names of patients directed prayer-givers away from a desire to pray for everyone participating in the study. Because the study was designed to investigate intercessory prayer, the results cannot be extrapolated to other types of prayer.

"Our study was never intended to address the existence of God or the presence or absence of intelligent design in the universe. The study did not endeavor, either, to compare the efficacy of one prayer form over another or to assess participants' understanding of the nature and purpose of prayer. Finally, it was not our objective to discover whether prayers from one religious group work better than prayers from another," How could it if they are all praying the same vain prayer? said co-author Father Dean Marek, Director, Chaplain Services, Mayo Clinic. Patients across the three groups had similar religious profiles. Most believed in spiritual healing and almost all believed friends or relatives would be praying for them. Investigators did not ask patients to have their friends and families withhold prayers, and assumed that many patients prayed for themselves during the study. And they didn't ask or indicate whether the patient was a Christian or not.

"One caveat is that with so many individuals receiving prayer from friends and family, as well as personal prayer, it may be impossible to disentangle the effects of study prayer from background prayer," said co-author Manoj Jain, Baptist Memorial Hospital, Memphis, Tennessee.

So this study is inconclusive by their own admission.

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

There are a lot of studies and none of them prove prayer does or does not work. They always conflict because life is random and is impossible to come to a conclusion on. You can see the result of prayer not working in the thousands of kids that die every day because of a lack of food or medicine. How many people do you know that pray for them? I used to...every single day. Then, I actually started sponsoring these kids and I found that I could save 10-15 kids every single year just on my monetary and material donations like food, clothing, and healthcare. I'd say that that is doing more good for them than my prayers ever could have. That's not to mention everything I do in my own community, helping the kids and individual families here. I could pray or I could actually do something.

Or, as my wife and I do, do both. It doesn't have to be an either/or.

It's obvious from your posts that you have a big heart.

We have sponsored fatherless children in India for years, or did, until I became unemployed. Once I find employment we will begin to support them again. And we will continue to pray for them as well. We've since moved too far away, but volunteered for years at the Warehouse of Hope, a food and clothing ministry that serves hundreds of families every month. So yeah, there's lots to do in addition to praying.

 

[byco42]

Prayer is not designed for God to grant us favors. It's designed to align our will with His own. Jesus himself asked for "this cup to pass from me, but Your will be done."

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

Prayer is not designed for God to grant us favors. It's designed to align our will with His own. Jesus himself asked for "this cup to pass from me, but Your will be done."

I had tunnel vision due to the overall discussion, but yeah, God isn't a vending machine - put in a prayer, get a miracle. Great point.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Prayer is not designed for God to grant us favors. It's designed to align our will with His own. Jesus himself asked for "this cup to pass from me, but Your will be done."

I'm not particularly religious myself, but man, I love that song Gethsemene from Superstar.

I really, really wish I had had the chance to play Jesus in a production of Superstar.

Superstar was produced at Michigan when I was a freshman; but I wasn't part of the ensemble.

We produced West Side Story when I was a senior and I was in that production with Atanis Ilitch (he played Action of the Jets; I was Pepe of the Sharks; a role that got incorporated into Chino's role in the movie).

I understudied Tony, but the bastard who was cast never sick or anything the bastard. I guess I should have fucked with brakes.


He went on to play Tony on Broadway in the West Side Story broadway revival.

I did play McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest during a two month summer run at the Performance Network, the summer of '84.

Detroit Tigers World Series Championship summer.

Right after I graduated.

Pretty magical time.

Then I moved to Hollywood.

Turning down an MFA fellowship in performing arts at Michigan.

Ah well.

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

Here's one that happened about six months ago.

My previous back issues have been chronicled here and I started a thread a few weeks back about an inversion table I bought a few months ago that has helped my back immensely. Well, many years ago when it would still act up occasionally, I considered buying a Tempur-Pedic, but with a wife, three daughters and a grandson to support, the mattress kept moving down the list of priorities. I didn't want to buy one of those toppers and dropping a grand+ on a mattress wasn't going to happen, so the wife and I prayed that the Lord would supply the money for us to buy a queen size. We've learned through the years that it is wise to wait on the Lord and this was one of those times.

Six months ago our church heard about a family that needed help. They were moving into an apartment and had nothing. Everyone brought what they could; plates, silverware, furniture, microwave, TVs, etc and we loaded it all up and delivered it.

The next Sunday when I arrived at church I saw that there were two twin size mattresses in the back. The pastor's wife handles the ministry that helped the family so I asked her if they were supposed to go to the family. She said, "No, they got all of the beds they need." I asked where the mattresses in back came from and she said someone (not a member of the church) just dropped them off and said give them to someone who needs them.

Guess what kind of mattresses they were. Yes, Tempur-Pedic.

I told her we could use them and she said to take them. Didn't cost us a dime and each mattress fits us perfectly as one is more dense than the other, so they work better than a one-density queen size would have.

Now, c'mon RABID, even you have to admit that's more than a coincidence. We've never had someone just drop stuff off and who drops off Tempur-Pedic??

 

[Monster]

Here's one that happened about six months ago.

My previous back issues have been chronicled here and I started a thread a few weeks back about an inversion table I bought a few months ago that has helped my back immensely. Well, many years ago when it would still act up occasionally, I considered buying a Tempur-Pedic, but with a wife, three daughters and a grandson to support, the mattress kept moving down the list of priorities. I didn't want to buy one of those toppers and dropping a grand+ on a mattress wasn't going to happen, so the wife and I prayed that the Lord would supply the money for us to buy a queen size. We've learned through the years that it is wise to wait on the Lord and this was one of those times.

Six months ago our church heard about a family that needed help. They were moving into an apartment and had nothing. Everyone brought what they could; plates, silverware, furniture, microwave, TVs, etc and we loaded it all up and delivered it.

The next Sunday when I arrived at church I saw that there were two twin size mattresses in the back. The pastor's wife handles the ministry that helped the family so I asked her if they were supposed to go to the family. She said, "No, they got all of the beds they need." I asked where the mattresses in back came from and she said someone (not a member of the church) just dropped them off and said give them to someone who needs them.

Guess what kind of mattresses they were. Yes, Tempur-Pedic.

I told her we could use them and she said to take them. Didn't cost us a dime and each mattress fits us perfectly as one is more dense than the other, so they work better than a one-density queen size would have.

Now, c'mon RABID, even you have to admit that's more than a coincidence. We've never had someone just drop stuff off and who drops off Tempur-Pedic??

This could never happen in real life. Ever. End of sarcasm.

When I first moved to california, I moved into an apartment with my future wife. We were dead broke from our deposit and first and last month's rent and had no couch and no table or entertainment center for our tv. A few days of sitting on the floor and a knock came at our door. Our neighbors that we had never talked to were moving and they were going to dump their furniture, but wanted to see if someone would take it to save them a truck rental to the dump. They'd already asked all the neighbors they knew and nobody had room for the stuff. We did. Took a couch, a really nice rug, a small dining table, some pots and pans that they'd never opened, a couple lamps, and a small entertainment center that I still have in my son's room.

I'm sorry man, but I really think that you want to believe so badly that you see God's work in everything. It's convenient for you what happened, but that doesn't mean it had to have been God.

My sister had a baby two years ago on October 3rd. When she gave birth, it was a bit early and they were totally unprepared. No carseat. Well, as you know, you need a car seat in order to take the baby home in a car. They won't allow you to go anywhere. She shared a room with another woman who had just given birth as well and when she overheard my sister speaking, she moved the privacy curtain back and said that they had three car seats already and she'd have her husband bring one of them from their house. My sister is an Atheist, too, and has been since even before I realized I was an atheist.

If God's going to do tedious work like giving your back a mattress, why doesn't He do things that actually matter, like bringing rain to parts of Africa so they can grow food, instead of starving to death? Why doesn't He send fresh water to places that only have disease infested drinking water?

Yes, I know you shouldn't question God in this manner and it's not for us to know or understand His will. Just please, think about why YOU are more special than other people that you get a mattress (or a tire) for your back and people that actually need help are ignored. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[TheVictors]

All of it is up to .....It

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

This could never happen in real life. Ever. End of sarcasm.

When I first moved to california, I moved into an apartment with my future wife. We were dead broke from our deposit and first and last month's rent and had no couch and no table or entertainment center for our tv. A few days of sitting on the floor and a knock came at our door. Our neighbors that we had never talked to were moving and they were going to dump their furniture, but wanted to see if someone would take it to save them a truck rental to the dump. They'd already asked all the neighbors they knew and nobody had room for the stuff. We did. Took a couch, a really nice rug, a small dining table, some pots and pans that they'd never opened, a couple lamps, and a small entertainment center that I still have in my son's room.

I'm sorry man, but I really think that you want to believe so badly that you see God's work in everything. It's convenient for you what happened, but that doesn't mean it had to have been God.

My sister had a baby two years ago on October 3rd. When she gave birth, it was a bit early and they were totally unprepared. No carseat. Well, as you know, you need a car seat in order to take the baby home in a car. They won't allow you to go anywhere. She shared a room with another woman who had just given birth as well and when she overheard my sister speaking, she moved the privacy curtain back and said that they had three car seats already and she'd have her husband bring one of them from their house. My sister is an Atheist, too, and has been since even before I realized I was an atheist.

If God's going to do tedious work like giving your back a mattress, why doesn't He do things that actually matter, like bringing rain to parts of Africa so they can grow food, instead of starving to death? Why doesn't He send fresh water to places that only have disease infested drinking water?

Yes, I know you shouldn't question God in this manner and it's not for us to know or understand His will. Just please, think about why YOU are more special than other people that you get a mattress (or a tire) for your back and people that actually need help are ignored. It just doesn't make sense.

This is long, but I wanted to address your points.

I like how you tell these stories that, I assume, you somehow think equate with the one I wrote, yet they have no detail to them. You say a couple from your complex, after checking with everyone else they knew, asked if you’d like their junk so they wouldn’t have to pay to take it to the dump. That is supposed to equate?

​

This would equate: You were the first ones they came to, even though they didn’t know you and you were in a totally different building three blocks from them and they randomly knocked on your door, and they gave you Lane furniture, and Wolfgang Puck cookware, and a handmade Persian rug that your wife and you had previously sat down and specifically listed as the things you wanted.

​

I really think that your hatred of God doesn’t allow you to see the difference between these stories.

​

I mean, a pregnant woman talks to the other pregnant woman she’s sharing a room with and she has an extra car seat. How does that equate?

​

This would equate: Your sister on the way to the hospital to give birth says, “Oh my gosh! I need a car seat in order to take the baby home. I’d love to have the new Graco Deluxe model.” She gets to the hospital and a stranger walks up and says, “I bought this car seat, but my wife bought one, too, here you can have it, no charge. It’s a Graco Deluxe model.”

​

Can you see the difference here?

​

Specific detail. ​

We prayed specifically for a Tempur-Pedic mattress vs junk that’s not even worth taking to the dump.

​

Given by someone we never knew. ​

The mattress was given by a complete stranger, whom I still have never met vs a couple who lived in your building

​

How it ended up where it did.​

It was given to a church that’s still fairly new to us (which also adds another probability to the original bread story. AND Jason and his wife are new to it as well, another probability). We were at our previous church for 14 years. What if we had stayed just a little longer? Or if we had joined one of the 200 different churches in the area when we moved? There’s one on every corner. Or he had given the mattress to one of those other 200 churches? (Just the last two items alone involve a 200 X 200 probability) Vs your neighbor who had already asked everyone else.

​

I could go on, but it’s obvious these stories are not equal.

​

What you described is generosity by those folks, which is great to receive. I had a guy come up to me last Sunday morning and say, “Your daughter just mentioned that you have a car that’s parked because it needs to go to the shop and it will cost $500 to fix it.” I said, “Yes, that’s true. The family is using one car right now. I’m unemployed so I’m waiting until I find a job.” He said, “I’d like to write you a check for $500 so you can get it fixed.” I offered to pay him back, but he indicated that he wasn’t doing it to get paid back. This kind of thing is great to have happen. Just like the envelope that was handed to my wife at church several weeks ago that had $400 in it from an anonymous person/couple. Or when the neighbors across the street walked over and handed my wife a wad of 10 $100 bills. These are all great instances of love and generosity. It goes against a man’s pride to have money given to him, but, fortunately, we have been on the giving side more often than the receiving and because of that I understand it is an act of gratitude to the giver to receive it.

​

So we’re back to the “When should God intervene?” question.

​

First of all - How do you know He’s not intervening? Both the church I attended for 14 years and the one I attend now, support ministries that drill wells for those people you mentioned. How do you know that the villages that the wells are dug in are not the ones praying for them? The ones who believe that He exists and are seeking Him?

​

See, you want Him to intervene in the issues that you deem the worst, but what if He intervened in your friend’s life and told him that he and his girlfriend couldn’t abort the child she is carrying. You’d be outraged and say He has no right to tell them what they can or cannot do. Before you say that’s not true – how do you talk about the people who are pro-life because they believe God hates when we kill unborn babies? Is that not one of the ways that God could be trying to intervene without bullying His way into their lives?

​

I disagree with your last assumption. It is perfectly fine to question God. He’s a big boy, He can take it. And we can know His will in these matters by searching after Him. I know it is His will that no one suffers, but He is also bound by His promise to allow us to make our own decisions, and many times those decisions lead to suffering.

​

There is nothing special about me. I am no better than anyone else. I do, however, follow His leading and direction and He is the one who is special. I told you at the beginning of this thread about this verse – Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” Emphasis mine. So why should He reward someone who doesn’t believe He even exists, or, if unsure if He exists, doesn’t seek Him?

He will always keep His promises. He always has with me. As a matter of fact, I will tell you later of a promise He made to me a long time ago (and there have been times I wanted to give up on it), but I know that He is faithful to His word and will keep it in His timing. Then when it happens I’ll tell you that, too.

​

I appreciate you reading all of this. I appreciate your willingness to discuss these issues.​

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

All of it is up to .....It

It's 2:30 in the morning and I have no idea what that means.

 

[Monster]

This is long, but I wanted to address your points.

I like how you tell these stories that, I assume, you somehow think equate with the one I wrote, yet they have no detail to them. You say a couple from your complex, after checking with everyone else they knew, asked if you?d like their junk so they wouldn?t have to pay to take it to the dump. That is supposed to equate?

​

This would equate: You were the first ones they came to, even though they didn?t know you and you were in a totally different building three blocks from them and they randomly knocked on your door, and they gave you Lane furniture, and Wolfgang Puck cookware, and a handmade Persian rug that your wife and you had previously sat down and specifically listed as the things you wanted.

​

I really think that your hatred of God doesn?t allow you to see the difference between these stories.

​

I mean, a pregnant woman talks to the other pregnant woman she?s sharing a room with and she has an extra car seat. How does that equate?

​

This would equate: Your sister on the way to the hospital to give birth says, ?Oh my gosh! I need a car seat in order to take the baby home. I?d love to have the new Graco Deluxe model.? She gets to the hospital and a stranger walks up and says, ?I bought this car seat, but my wife bought one, too, here you can have it, no charge. It?s a Graco Deluxe model.?

​

Can you see the difference here?

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Specific detail. ​

We prayed specifically for a Tempur-Pedic mattress vs junk that?s not even worth taking to the dump.

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Given by someone we never knew. ​

The mattress was given by a complete stranger, whom I still have never met vs a couple who lived in your building

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How it ended up where it did.​

It was given to a church that?s still fairly new to us (which also adds another probability to the original bread story. AND Jason and his wife are new to it as well, another probability). We were at our previous church for 14 years. What if we had stayed just a little longer? Or if we had joined one of the 200 different churches in the area when we moved? There?s one on every corner. Or he had given the mattress to one of those other 200 churches? (Just the last two items alone involve a 200 X 200 probability) Vs your neighbor who had already asked everyone else.

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I could go on, but it?s obvious these stories are not equal.

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What you described is generosity by those folks, which is great to receive. I had a guy come up to me last Sunday morning and say, ?Your daughter just mentioned that you have a car that?s parked because it needs to go to the shop and it will cost $500 to fix it.? I said, ?Yes, that?s true. The family is using one car right now. I?m unemployed so I?m waiting until I find a job.? He said, ?I?d like to write you a check for $500 so you can get it fixed.? I offered to pay him back, but he indicated that he wasn?t doing it to get paid back. This kind of thing is great to have happen. Just like the envelope that was handed to my wife at church several weeks ago that had $400 in it from an anonymous person/couple. Or when the neighbors across the street walked over and handed my wife a wad of 10 $100 bills. These are all great instances of love and generosity. It goes against a man?s pride to have money given to him, but, fortunately, we have been on the giving side more often than the receiving and because of that I understand it is an act of gratitude to the giver to receive it.

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So we?re back to the ?When should God intervene?? question.

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First of all - How do you know He?s not intervening? Both the church I attended for 14 years and the one I attend now, support ministries that drill wells for those people you mentioned. How do you know that the villages that the wells are dug in are not the ones praying for them? The ones who believe that He exists and are seeking Him?

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See, you want Him to intervene in the issues that you deem the worst, but what if He intervened in your friend?s life and told him that he and his girlfriend couldn?t abort the child she is carrying. You?d be outraged and say He has no right to tell them what they can or cannot do. Before you say that?s not true ? how do you talk about the people who are pro-life because they believe God hates when we kill unborn babies? Is that not one of the ways that God could be trying to intervene without bullying His way into their lives?

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I disagree with your last assumption. It is perfectly fine to question God. He?s a big boy, He can take it. And we can know His will in these matters by searching after Him. I know it is His will that no one suffers, but He is also bound by His promise to allow us to make our own decisions, and many times those decisions lead to suffering.

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There is nothing special about me. I am no better than anyone else. I do, however, follow His leading and direction and He is the one who is special. I told you at the beginning of this thread about this verse ? Hebrews 11:6 ?And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.? Emphasis mine. So why should He reward someone who doesn?t believe He even exists, or, if unsure if He exists, doesn?t seek Him?

He will always keep His promises. He always has with me. As a matter of fact, I will tell you later of a promise He made to me a long time ago (and there have been times I wanted to give up on it), but I know that He is faithful to His word and will keep it in His timing. Then when it happens I?ll tell you that, too.

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I appreciate you reading all of this. I appreciate your willingness to discuss these issues.​

I'm really trying to figure out how you think your stories are completely impossible and there is absolutely no chance it happened at random and must have been worked by God. Even the situation you said would equate to your story is possible without God. That is what you're not understanding. There are millions of people in this world that have no God whatsoever and have really strange coincidences occur. It doesn't mean that a deity had to intervene.

It's not about me hating God. I don't hate God. I hate the bible. I hate the message that it sends if read properly. Sure, there's some warm and fuzzy stuff, but there's also a ton of stuff that you won't even admit is in it. And for the record, I would love for there to be a God. I just refuse to follow a book (and it's god) that has so many detestable things inside of it.

Again, I don't hate God and my nonbelief in Him is not clouding my vision here. You had something good happen for you, but it's nothing that couldn't actually happen. Here's what would qualify as something I would say would back you up. Your back hurts, you pray for a new mattress, a man comes up to you and hands it to you right then and there. Besides, it didn't even fix your back. You're still having problems. Maybe God could have sent a doctor to your house that has found a miracle surgery to make sure your pain goes away forever? That would be another good example of something I couldn't explain.

People pray for specific things all the time and don't get them, no matter how dire the situation. Is that proof that God doesn't exist since you say that getting what you asked for was proof? It works both ways. And yes, I know that you have a witty church inspired come back for it. Have you noticed how anything that could ever make a christian doubt the existence of God, there's either a punishment or a really really bad excuse?

Okay, on the subject of the when to intervene...First of all, I'm sorry, but why should kids have to pray to a God in order to eat? Why should a woman/girl have to pray to a God in order to not get raped by her uncle/father/brother/neighbor? Why should a man have to pray to a God in order to keep his home?

I don't know if you've noticed, but despite all of the churches all over the world doing their occasional fundraisers and well digging, there are still millions of kids that are dying because of malnutrition and poison water. All God would have to do is give more occasional rain and help things grow at the same time as giving fresh drinking water.

Yes, I know, I know. The famous "When should God step in" question. I get this all the time and I think it's the most ridiculous question you could ever ask. When should he step in? Well, since he's God, if he doesn't like abortion, stop it. It's simple as that. If he doesn't like a man raping a woman, stop it. Sure, it might piss some people off, but who cares? He's God!!!

Believe it or not, I hate abortion, too. I don't want any unborn babies to be aborted! I don't think any pro-choice people think that way. The difference between us is I do not believe in God and His laws don't bind me to some foolish thinking that a woman has to go through a pregnancy and give birth to a baby that she either can't support, has been raped and impregnated, or she could die if she goes full term.

God craves love and respect from us all. I'm sure you wouldn't deny that. Why not give some kind of proof other than some book that has multiple authors, has been revised hundreds of times, and has very few historical facts that can actually be proven? The answer I always get to this question is that God wants us to follow Him with faith and that it's different to KNOW he exists, rather than having faith in Him existing.

That never made much sense to me. I get the concept, but why not just show yourself, lay out your rules, and if we disobey Him, then we can go to Hell. Why let so many religions exist? Show yourself in some way and let people love you or defy you with an actual reason. How can someone be expected to find God when there are so many other religions and no proof that any of the are legit?

God never had a problem talking to His people in the past. You say that he speaks to you, so let me ask you a question. If God told you to kill your neighbor because he is a pedophile, would you do it? And I'm not asking if God would command that of you. Just simply, would you? How would you feel if someone else said they heard God tell them to do such a thing? It happens all the time, yet those people are considered crazy. Why?

Is it such a stretch for a god that commanded childrens' heads to be dashed against the walls, pregnant women cut open, animals to be slaughtered, and women to be taken as slaves, to order one of His children to kill? If you can't accept that God might ask someone to do that, why should anyone accept that God talks to you? Would that not be just as crazy? I mean, I guess this is going back to your OP, but I'd really like your answer on this.

I just feel that you people cover your eyes with a blindfold, stick your fingers in your ears and yell NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH whenever you get to the bad parts of the bible. Or, worse yet, you try to justify them.

 

[Monster]

Wow, that was long. Didn't realize it was so late. Oh well.