OT Yes, God does speak to me (and others)

[redandguilty]

just so you guys don't actually have to read....

However, in saying that atheists could go to heaven last week, the pope appears to have gone too far. The Vatican has issued a statement correcting the pope's statements, citing a misunderstanding of the pope's statement.

Those word, I believe, are a misinterpretation of the clarification. Someone ask the Vatican official if he 'corrected' the Pope.

 

[RABID]

Regarding quantum physics and general relativity?...What?

Don't fuck with my segway please.

 

[Monster]

Those word, I believe, are a misinterpretation of the clarification. Someone ask the Vatican official if he 'corrected' the Pope.

are you serious? A misinterpretation of a correction? Yes, they did correct the pope. They said he misspoke.

msn.com

Refuting Pope Francis' statements last week that those who "do good" will go to heaven, regardless of faith or lack thereof, the Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, has corrected his boss, saying those who know about the Catholic Church "cannot be saved" if they "refuse to enter her or remain in her."

From the huffington post

"All salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body," Rosica wrote. "Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her."

 

[redandguilty]

Don't fuck with my segway please.

Arrested Development used to change the subject of conversation abruptly whenever GOB showed up on his segway. Intentional?

 

[byco42]

Clearly you didn't click on my link. The vatican said he misspoke.

That link said that the Pope misspoke without publishing the statement. The Vatican did not say that the Pope misspoke-because he didn't. Here's a clarification from a Vatican spokesperson. This is the document they are citing that claims the Pope "misspoke."

http://saltandlighttv.org/blog/fr-t...n-in-pope-francis-daily-homily-of-may-22-2013

The Pharassitic manner in which the media interprets and distorts what was said on this topic illustrated its reluctance to actually examine the nature and context of the Pope's statements.

This statement from the Catechism of the Catholic Church has been in plain sight for years!

Christ will judge with the power he has gained as the Redeemer of the world who came to bring salvation to all. The secrets of hearts will be brought to light as well as the conduct of each one toward God and toward his neighbor. Everyone, according to how he has lived, will either be filled with life or damned for eternity. In this way, ?the fullness of Christ? (Ephesians 4:13) will come about in which ?God will be all in all? (1 Corinthians 15:28).

This is the controversial statement from Pope Francis:

?The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ?Father, the atheists?? Even the atheists."

Hopefully those who take the time to examine the situation can be disabused of the idea that the Pope himself actually spoke against Church teaching and was corrected. That is blatently false and the Daily Kos's and the Huff Posts and the Salon's of the world are not all that interested in learning the truth anyway.

 

[RABID]

Arrested Development used to change the subject of conversation abruptly whenever GOB showed up on his segway. Intentional?

Maybe. Keep it up and I'll run you down on my segue like Paul Blart.

 

[Monster]

That link said that the Pope misspoke without publishing the statement. The Vatican did not say that the Pope misspoke-because he didn't. Here's a clarification from a Vatican spokesperson. This is the document they are citing that claims the Pope "misspoke."

http://saltandlighttv.org/blog/fr-t...n-in-pope-francis-daily-homily-of-may-22-2013

The Pharassitic manner in which the media interprets and distorts what was said on this topic illustrated its reluctance to actually examine the nature and context of the Pope's statements.

This statement from the Catechism of the Catholic Church has been in plain sight for years!

Christ will judge with the power he has gained as the Redeemer of the world who came to bring salvation to all. The secrets of hearts will be brought to light as well as the conduct of each one toward God and toward his neighbor. Everyone, according to how he has lived, will either be filled with life or damned for eternity. In this way, ?the fullness of Christ? (Ephesians 4:13) will come about in which ?God will be all in all? (1 Corinthians 15:28).

This is the controversial statement from Pope Francis:

?The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ?Father, the atheists?? Even the atheists."

Hopefully those who take the time to examine the situation can be disabused of the idea that the Pope himself actually spoke against Church teaching and was corrected. That is blatently false and the Daily Kos's and the Huff Posts and the Salon's of the world are not all that interested in learning the truth anyway.

everything you have just copied and pasted tells me that the church's stance has always been that you can find salvation only in God and the church. The pope said something that is a bit different and can be interpreted in a few ways. The vatican came out and corrected/clarified what was said.

My point has been from the very beginning that Atheists can not get into heaven according to these people. Many Christians aren't going, either and that's straight from the bible.

 

[redandguilty]

are you serious? A misinterpretation of a correction? Yes, they did correct the pope. They said he misspoke.

msn.com

Refuting Pope Francis' statements last week that those who "do good" will go to heaven, regardless of faith or lack thereof, the Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, has corrected his boss, saying those who know about the Catholic Church "cannot be saved" if they "refuse to enter her or remain in her."

From the huffington post

"All salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body," Rosica wrote. "Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her."

Where? Where did he say he misspoke? ...or that he is correcting him?

http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/ex...f-salvation-in-francis-daily-homily-of-may-22

People misinterpret. You have to have the appropriate understanding of Christ before you can reject Him. From Rosica's comments:

"A non-Christian may reject a Christian’s presentation of the gospel of Christ. That however, does not necessarily mean that the person has truly rejected Christ and God. Rejection of Christianity may not mean the rejection of Christ."

 

[byco42]

everything you have just copied and pasted tells me that the church's stance has always been that you can find salvation only in God and the church. The pope said something that is a bit different and can be interpreted in a few ways. The vatican came out and corrected/clarified what was said.

My point has been from the very beginning that Atheists can not get into heaven according to these people. Many Christians aren't going, either and that's straight from the bible.

I contend that you are interpreting the Bible in a narrow way to satisfy your own personal beliefs. They may change. Many others have changed their own.

 

[redandguilty]

I contend that you are interpreting the Bible in a narrow way to satisfy your own personal beliefs.

...and the people at HuffPo, MSNBC, and policymic are interpreting Rosica's comments in a similar fashion. Or they're parroting someone who did.

 

[byco42]

are you serious? A misinterpretation of a correction? Yes, they did correct the pope. They said he misspoke.

msn.com

Refuting Pope Francis' statements last week that those who "do good" will go to heaven, regardless of faith or lack thereof, the Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, has corrected his boss, saying those who know about the Catholic Church "cannot be saved" if they "refuse to enter her or remain in her."

From the huffington post

"All salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body," Rosica wrote. "Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her."

Good Lord, the truth is expressed in plain English and you don't see it. Do you "know" the bolded statement to be the truth? If you don't, that's altogether different from "denying" the truth.

As for the press's interpretation of what a refutation is, it is clear that they got it wrong in this case, but it was want to actually care in the first place.

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

Wow, took me quite a while to read up.

I'll say two things - no, three.

First, I was offered a web design job which I've been working on all day. :clap:

Second, I wish I could do dinner with RABID and Monster so we could have a conversation rather than do this message board thing.

Third, I am not Catholic and should have said early on that when I write "church" it means either the local body of believers I congregate with or "the body of Christ," meaning those who have chosen to allow Jesus to control their hearts and lives. If I am referring to the Catholic Church I write Catholic Church.

I said that to say this - the quote by the Catholic representative said that "all have been redeemed through Christ" (my paraphrase based on memory). She was correct, all have been redeemed. HOWEVER, not everyone will accept that redemption. It's the same as being on death row and having the governor pardon you. You can accept the pardon and be free or refuse the pardon and be put to death. Understandably, everyone accepts the pardon.

I sincerely ask that you accept the pardon that Christ offers.

 

[Monster]

Where? Where did he say he misspoke? ...or that he is correcting him?

http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/ex...f-salvation-in-francis-daily-homily-of-may-22

People misinterpret. You have to have the appropriate understanding of Christ before you can reject Him. From Rosica's comments:

"A non-Christian may reject a Christian?s presentation of the gospel of Christ. That however, does not necessarily mean that the person has truly rejected Christ and God. Rejection of Christianity may not mean the rejection of Christ."

You know, this is why it's so frustrating to talk with you people about this stuff. It clearly says in the article that the pope was corrected. Also, he said the exact OPPOSITE of what the pope said. How is that not a correction? If Brady Hoke goes out and says that Devin Gardner is Suspended for the season and then Bourges comes out and says, "No, there is no suspension", it doesn't matter if Bourges says, "I'm correcting Brady Hoke". He corrected him, no matter what you say.

Yes, I read that quote as well. But, a rejection of Christ is is a rejection. An atheist completely rejects the idea of Christ. If they don't, then they aren't atheists because they believe in a deity. I swear, I feel like you're arguing about something that shouldn't even matter and you're making stuff up as you go along.

Atheists can not get into heaven according to the bible. Non-believers who reject Christ and have other Gods can not get into heaven. I've yet to see any verses that say otherwise. The pope's own words were corrected (even Catholic radio has confirmed this...at least that's what my father in law has told me. He's a strict catholic, btw.)

In fact...

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

You should kill any man or woman or child that tries to turn you from God.


However, if the bible had more verses like this, I wouldn't even bother debating with Christians....

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Matthew 5:43-44)

 

[Monster]

I contend that you are interpreting the Bible in a narrow way to satisfy your own personal beliefs. They may change. Many others have changed their own.

Not sure exactly what you mean. I'm not interpreting the bible in any way. I'm telling you exactly what it says.

If an Atheist becomes a believer, then of course he may get into Heaven. Of course. That's what the bible says.

I don't know who it was who wrote the original comment, but they said something like "Didn't the pope just say that Atheists can get into Heaven?"

That's all that matters here. If the media is misinterpreting what he said, that still means he didn't say it. If he said that atheists can get into heaven, then the rev. corrected him because he said the exact opposite of the pope.

 

[Monster]

Wow, took me quite a while to read up.

I'll say two things - no, three.

First, I was offered a web design job which I've been working on all day. :clap:

Second, I wish I could do dinner with RABID and Monster so we could have a conversation rather than do this message board thing.

Third, I am not Catholic and should have said early on that when I write "church" it means either the local body of believers I congregate with or "the body of Christ," meaning those who have chosen to allow Jesus to control their hearts and lives. If I am referring to the Catholic Church I write Catholic Church.

I said that to say this - the quote by the Catholic representative said that "all have been redeemed through Christ" (my paraphrase based on memory). She was correct, all have been redeemed. HOWEVER, not everyone will accept that redemption. It's the same as being on death row and having the governor pardon you. You can accept the pardon and be free or refuse the pardon and be put to death. Understandably, everyone accepts the pardon.

I sincerely ask that you accept the pardon that Christ offers.

The last sentence...nah. Wanting to go to Heaven isn't the same as believing. I'm not going to follow something that I know I don't believe in.

As for the rest of what you wrote, very well written. I agree, a dinner would be cool. Actually, I wish that we could have occasional teleconferences with the board. Not just about this topic, but sports as well. We could have a moderator who starts off with certain topics and we could each have our own commentary on the issue, then discuss and debate.

I feel like we all need to do something to make this board a bit more unique. Hmmm, I'll try to figure out some other ideas.

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

The last sentence...nah. Wanting to go to Heaven isn't the same as believing. I'm not going to follow something that I know I don't believe in.

As for the rest of what you wrote, very well written. I agree, a dinner would be cool. Actually, I wish that we could have occasional teleconferences with the board. Not just about this topic, but sports as well. We could have a moderator who starts off with certain topics and we could each have our own commentary on the issue, then discuss and debate.

I feel like we all need to do something to make this board a bit more unique. Hmmm, I'll try to figure out some other ideas.

I've got Skype, you?

 

[Monster]

I've got Skype, you?

nah. i have a 3 year old laptop that doesn't have a webcam. Never had a reason to get one, either.

That is a good idea, though. Never thought of using skype for this stuff. It'd be perfect for a fantasy football/baseball/basketball draft.

 

[GoBlueInAtlanta]

nah. i have a 3 year old laptop that doesn't have a webcam. Never had a reason to get one, either.

That is a good idea, though. Never thought of using skype for this stuff. It'd be perfect for a fantasy football/baseball/basketball draft.

:bs:

My desktop is 8 years old!! :nod: Then again, I have maxed out the RAM, added a slave hard drive (to maximize virtual memory), etc. My youngest daughter bought the wife and me a Logitech web cam so we could Skype with our eldest daughter and grandson in NY and the middle daughter when she was in Kansas (she's now back home with us).

 

[redandguilty]

You know, this is why it's so frustrating to talk with you people about this stuff. It clearly says in the article that the pope was corrected. Also, he said the exact OPPOSITE of what the pope said. How is that not a correction?

It doesn't. The articles got it wrong. Forget the article and look and what the guy from the Vatican actually said. He clarified that you only get to heaven through Christ, but you can't ever say for certain that someone has rejected Christ because there's always a chance that they're really rejecting is a flawed impression they have of Christ because Christians sometimes make for poor representatives. None of the explanation contradicts the Pope unless you cut a quote short to make it sound that way. I'm not being unfair here. Go ahead a quote where he said the opposite. So far all the quote have conditions, and then there's a paragraph explaining how that condition opens the door to atheists. For every phrase that sounds exclusive, there's one like this:

"God truly and effectively wills all people to be saved."

that's presented without qualifiers.

 

[redandguilty]

I swear, I feel like you're arguing about something that shouldn't even matter and you're making stuff up as you go along.

I'm really not. I'll admit, I made an assumption before reading the whole response, but it completely panned out. It's not just religion, news organizations get politics and science wrong all the time too.

If you're so convinced that MSNBC and company are doing a fair job explaining what the Vatican guys said, how do you explain that he would be very obviously contradicting himself several times in the statement?