Private Prison Business is booming

[turok]

I don't know.

How many angels can dance on the point of a sewing needle?

If the people aren't tested, how are we gonna know how many there are?

Also, I don't know that not being tested for DUI has anything to do with socio-economic status.

If you're rich and you don't get pulled over when you're drunk or under the influence, you're not gonna go to jail.

If you're poor, and you don't get pulled over when you're drunk or under the influence, you're also not gonna go to jail.

There's nothing in your post that refutes the irrefutable facts I posted that you're responding to, because they're irrefutable.

That's because they're facts.

There are millions who are on anxiety and pain relieving opioid drugs, and likewise millions who have knowingly drunk more than ounce of alcohol per hour after sporting events like the "19th hole", then driven, which is illegal, whether caught or not. I made no mention of socioeconomic status.

 

[tinselwolverine]

There are millions who are on anxiety and pain relieving opioid drugs, and likewise millions who have knowingly drunk more than ounce of alcohol per hour after sporting events like the "19th hole", then driven, which is illegal, whether caught or not. I made no mention of socioeconomic status.

I guess I'm not getting your point, and I'm certainly missing how anything about how making the choice to drive under the influence or not drive under the influence correlates to whether prisons are run publicly or privately.

 

[turok]

I guess I'm not getting your point, and I'm certainly missing how anything about how making the choice to drive under the influence or not drive under the influence correlates to whether prisons are run publicly or privately.

So if I reply to the part of a post that does not involve what was in the OP, then I'm not supposed to be going off topic? Who made that rule here?

 

[tinselwolverine]

We should try to keep profits out of the business of incarceration with the same fervor we try to inject free markets into most other things. Too much drive to increase the number of "customers" to remain ethical.

I don't know who would be driven to increase the number of "customers" that would participate in the actual process leading to incarceration. The explanation of this should be apparent below.

Our incarceration rates are high compared to other places of similar wealth. I don't believe Americans are inherently more deserving of it.

I don't know how this has anything to do with whether prisons are run privately or otherwise.

A person is suspected of a crime for whatever reason. The publicly employed police do some investigation, and finding probably cause, make an arrest.

Further investigation is going to lead to a determination to pursue charges in conjunction with the publicly employed members of the DA's office, or to drop the charges based on insufficient evidence.

The DA will then do a similar evaluation, and based on the likelihood of conviction, bring a criminal case, or drop the charges.

The defendant will either hire council of be appointed council by the court if a prosecution is pursued.

The defendant will, on advice of council, either make a plea deal, or stand trial.

If the case goes to trial, a jury of citizen/civilian peers will find either guilty or not guilty.

If a plea deal is made or if a conviction of guilty is determined by a jury, a judge - also a public employee - will make a sentence.

If the sentence is a period of incarceration, and there will at some point be a parole eligibility, a parole board - also members of the public - will be the ones make a determination to award parole or not.

Nothing involving the determination to incarcerate nor the period of incarceration has anything to do with whether the incarceration facilities are managed privately or not.

 

[tinselwolverine]

So if I reply to the part of a post that does not involve what was in the OP, then I'm not supposed to be going off topic? Who made that rule here?

I don't know if what I've emboldened is actually what you meant to post, but I also don't understand the point you're trying to make in this reply either.

 

[turok]

If someone is being arrested, arraigned, tried, convicted, and sentenced by "the people" then they should also be incarcerated by "the people" and not a for-profit private entity. Bad enough that the best defense available is private and comes with a very high price tag.

 

[tinselwolverine]

If someone is being arrested, arraigned, tried, convicted, and sentenced by "the people" then they should also be incarcerated by "the people" and not a for-profit private entity. Bad enough that the best defense available is private and comes with a very high price tag.

That's fair and reasonable.

I'm pretty sure there are no federal prisons that are run privately - I could be wrong - and I highly doubt that California, where I have, has private for profit prisons.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I don't know who would be driven to increase the number of "customers" that would participate in the actual process leading to incarceration. The explanation of this should be apparent below.

It's usually not this direct. Prisons hire lobbyists, lobbyists influence politicians. Politicians influence how easy it is to get sent to prison.

All that is tough to prove in a message board post. But here's a nice and easy case to show the motive exists:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html

The answers became a bit clearer on Thursday as the judge, Mark A. Ciavarella Jr., and a colleague, Michael T. Conahan, appeared in federal court in Scranton, Pa., to plead guilty to wire fraud and income tax fraud for taking more than $2.6 million in kickbacks to send teenagers to two privately run youth detention centers run by PA Child Care and a sister company, Western PA Child Care.

 

[Gulo Blue]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...me-the-biggest-lobby-no-one-is-talking-about/

The two largest for-profit prison companies in the United States – GEO and Corrections Corporation of America – and their associates have funneled more than $10 million to candidates since 1989 and have spent nearly $25 million on lobbying efforts. Meanwhile, these private companies have seen their revenue and market share soar. They now rake in a combined $3.3 billion in annual revenue and the private federal prison population more than doubled between 2000 and 2010, according to a report by the Justice Policy Institute.

 

[tinselwolverine]

It's usually not this direct. Prisons hire lobbyists, lobbyists influence politicians. Politicians influence how easy it is to get sent to prison.

All that is tough to prove in a message board post. But here's a nice and easy case to show the motive exists:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html

Anyway, turok's philosophical point in post #26 convinced me on something I theretofore hadn't had much of an opinion.

The entirety of law enforcement, criminal justice and corrections should all be run through the people.

 

[Michchamp]

more private prison awfulness, this time from Oklahoma.

this should be under the politics tab. it was all political decisions that enabled the switch to and growth of private prisons. they wouldn't exist otherwise.

it's just taxpayer dollars being shoveled to a handful of corporations, instead of to other things, like schools, roads, bridges, fire trucks, mental health clinics, etc.

instead of providing working class people with good public education, career opportunities, and mental health care if they need it, we criminalize them and send them to for-profit prisons, where they can work essentially as slave labor... all this in 21st Century America. Our wonderful Shining beacon of democracy and freedom.

 

[tomdalton22]

I wonder how valid this story / lawsuit is. It says that there are 1163 people booked into jail for failure to pay. Is that the only thing they are in jail for? The article says there are 45,000 open failure to pay warrants. Sounds like they are having a hard time getting "criminals" to pay their court costs.

 

[turok]

So people who commit crimes who can afford to pay the fees and fines, either through their own means, or from someone else, are more deserving to go free than someone who cannot.

Seems totally fair and legit.

 

[tinselwolverine]

more private prison awfulness, this time from Oklahoma.

it's just taxpayer dollars being shoveled to a handful of corporations, instead of to other things, like schools, roads, bridges, fire trucks, mental health clinics, etc.

Turok convinced me with a simple philosophical point that we should do away with for profit prisons - nothing in the law enforcement and conviction and sentencing chain is for profit - it's all done by the people - imperfectly of course, but what is perfect? - and incarceration and rehabilitation should also be done by the people.

Before that I was pretty much neutral.

I researched the history of for profit prisons; Wikipedia, which, while also not perfect, is usually a pretty good source, equates the expansion of the private prison system with the war on drugs.

I also think that the war on drugs is a complete waste.

As a libertarian, I used to believe that if people wanted to do drugs, free people should be free to make that choice. My feelings have kind of moderated on that, and I don't claim to know the solution, but I don't believe long periods of incarceration simply for drug possession in small amounts is a solution.

That said, people don't go to prison because private companies are making money from it.

People go to prison because they've been found guilty of crimes through our criminal justice process.

Also I drive on roads, I pass schools and mental health clinics, I drive over bridges and I see and hear fire trucks every day - I don't know about the rest of Texas, but when I used to be in Dallas for family and business interests, it was the same thing.

I guess the best thing about doing away with private prisons and having them run by the state and federal governments instead would that they would stop costing the tax payers any dollars.

They would just magically manifest and operate themselves at no cost to the public whatsoever.

 

[tinselwolverine]

more private prison awfulness, this time from Oklahoma.

this should be under the politics tab. it was all political decisions that enabled the switch to and growth of private prisons. they wouldn't exist otherwise.

I moved it.

My guess thought he was starting the thread in the politics board, which is a sub forum of the Diggler's Junk board.

 

[tinselwolverine]

So people who commit crimes who can afford to pay the fees and fines, either through their own means, or from someone else, are more deserving to go free than someone who cannot.

Seems totally fair and legit.

I question the veracity of stuff from The Daily Beast, much the same way I would with stuff say from Breitbart.

I tried to find out stuff about this Ira Wilkins and what he was convicted of in the first place, but so far I haven't found anything.

I've never heard of a person who, upon completion of their sentence, was disallowed to be released because of court costs - it seems far fetched to me.

 

[Michchamp]

I wonder how valid this story / lawsuit is. It says that there are 1163 people booked into jail for failure to pay. Is that the only thing they are in jail for? The article says there are 45,000 open failure to pay warrants. Sounds like they are having a hard time getting "criminals" to pay their court costs.

the company getting sued was founded fairly recently, so it could be that the 45k figure could be existing unpaid fines from over the years.

company was founded by a disbarred lawyer who went to prison for tax fraud... and this is the guy Oklahoma sheriffs are doing business with here.

So people who commit crimes who can afford to pay the fees and fines, either through their own means, or from someone else, are more deserving to go free than someone who cannot.

Seems totally fair and legit.

like I said, the only real crime is being poor!

 

[Michchamp]

...

I also think that the war on drugs is a complete waste.

As a libertarian, I used to believe that if people wanted to do drugs, free people should be free to make that choice. My feelings have kind of moderated on that, and I don't claim to know the solution, but I don't believe long periods of incarceration simply for drug possession in small amounts is a solution.

you can de-criminalize drugs, but still hold people accountable who do irresponsible things because of drugs. they can treat drug addiction as it should be: an illness, not a crime. courts can order addicts to attend clinics to kick their addiction, and get well.

and people out of control could still be arrested so they don't harm themselves or others; it would be no different than throwing a drunk in the drunk tank to sober up.

That said, people don't go to prison because private companies are making money from it.

People go to prison because they've been found guilty of crimes through our criminal justice process.

...

???... but the private prison industry comes up with creative new ways to "grow" their business (i.e. put MORE people in their jails for longer terms). It then lobbies politicians to that end. (like opposing marijuana decriminalization) Their latest initiative is to push to make penalties for violating immigration laws more severe, so those poor people will be incarcerated, instead of merely deported. Link.

 

[tinselwolverine]

you can de-criminalize drugs, but still hold people accountable who do irresponsible things because of drugs. they can treat drug addiction as it should be: an illness, not a crime. courts can order addicts to attend clinics to kick their addiction, and get well.

and people out of control could still be arrested so they don't harm themselves or others; it would be no different than throwing a drunk in the drunk tank to sober up.

This makes sense to me. I hear Drew Pinsky on the radio talking about this all the time.

???... but the private prison industry comes up with creative new ways to "grow" their business (i.e. put MORE people in their jails for longer terms). It then lobbies politicians to that end. (like opposing marijuana decriminalization) Their latest initiative is to push to make penalties for violating immigration laws more severe, so those poor people will be incarcerated, instead of merely deported. Link.

I already said, Turok convinced me with a simple philosophical point that private for profit prisons are contradictory to our nation's fundamental tenets of liberty and justice.

I'm absolutely on board that they should be done away with.

 

[Michchamp]

ok good. here's your pitchfork and torch.