Surprise, surprise, surprise: More guns = more shootings.

[Michchamp]

Due to gun nuts pushing concealed carry as a viable crime deterrent and associated laws in each state, since 2007 the number of concealed carry holders has increased across the board, resulting in... YOU GUESSED IT:

...722 deaths in 544 concealed-carry shootings in 36 states and the District of Columbia, only 16 cases were eventually ruled lawful self-defense ? even though this has been a major gun rights selling point for the new laws.
​

Link to source (NYTimes article on it).
Link to study.

that's not like, a lot in the grand scheme of things, though, right? it's normal for lots of people to be shot and killed all the time.

 

[Sbee]

Champ, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns just make doing so a shit load easier and more effective.

 

[zoombabyzoom]

Most people I know of that want to carry a gun, shouldnt.

Because it's for all the wrong reasons.

 

[spockmaster]

I only want to collect historic guns.

 

[turok]

Other than those who were victims of a mugging (directly or indirectly), I suppose many who CCW are often looking for any reason to flash their piece, no matter how flimsy.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

I thought it was "against the rules" of progressive left to own a gun but there are so many I know that do. Do as I say...not as I do..... the hypocrisy continues...

 

[Spartan23MSU]

Champ, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns just make doing so a shit load easier and more effective.

Im really hot and cold on concealed carry even though im all for legal gun ownership. There are too many fits of road rage as 1 small example of where things can take a change for the worst.

 

[Sbee]

Im really hot and cold on concealed carry even though im all for legal gun ownership. There are too many fits of road rage as 1 small example of where things can take a change for the worst.

Lots of negatives to gun ownership, mainly increased risk of killing yourself or someone you love. Suicide is an epidemic in America, particularly veterans. Most suicide attempts fail but not when using a gun, men are much more likely to be successful because they're more likely to own a gun.

The second amendment was enacted for maintaining a militia to fight wars, I don't know if the founding fathers were thinking about 20 round clips for ordinary citizens.

Regardless were the gun country and that won't change, well continue to shoot each other at rates similar to brazil, Columbia, and Mexico.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

Lots of negatives to gun ownership, mainly increased risk of killing yourself or someone you love. Suicide is an epidemic in America, particularly veterans. Most suicide attempts fail but not when using a gun, men are much more likely to be successful because they're more likely to own a gun.

The second amendment was enacted for maintaining a militia to fight wars, I don't know if the founding fathers were thinking about 20 round clips for ordinary citizens.

Regardless were the gun country and that won't change, well continue to shoot each other at rates similar to brazil, Columbia, and Mexico.

Brazil, Colombia and Mexico outdo us 10-1 per capita actually. I lived in Colombia for almost a year , the Escobar days are gone. They will however shoot first and ask questions later if you fuck around at all. I saw a guy not pay a cab fare and had a gun in his face.We ranked 50 something in per capita gun killings world wide not even on the map as much as the media would like you to think.....no it wasnt fox news that presented that stat...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

 

[Gulo Blue]

Brazil, Colombia and Mexico outdo us 10-1 per capita actually. I lived in Colombia for almost a year , the Escobar days are gone. They will however shoot first and ask questions later if you fuck around at all. I saw a guy not pay a cab fare and had a gun in his face.We ranked 50 something in per capita gun killings world wide not even on the map as much as the media would like you to think.....no it wasnt fox news that presented that stat...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

That link doesn't have all nations, but it has us at #19 for homicides and #13 for total gun deaths per capita. Pretty awful. But part of what's so wrong is the crazy scale of it all. The worst place is 6.5 times worse than we are. If you look at our rate divided by 6.5, there's 29 nations on the list with lower rates. That's 40% of the nations on that list where our level of violence compared to theirs looks like the worst place in the world compared to us.

 

[Sbee]

Brazil, Colombia and Mexico outdo us 10-1 per capita actually. I lived in Colombia for almost a year , the Escobar days are gone. They will however shoot first and ask questions later if you fuck around at all. I saw a guy not pay a cab fare and had a gun in his face.We ranked 50 something in per capita gun killings world wide not even on the map as much as the media would like you to think.....no it wasnt fox news that presented that stat...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Maybe I was confusing our American incarceration rates to gun deaths. Those are closely related to the American demand for narcotics, as are our drug deaths.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

That link doesn't have all nations, but it has us at #19 for homicides and #13 for total gun deaths per capita. Pretty awful. But part of what's so wrong is the crazy scale of it all. The worst place is 6.5 times worse than we are. If you look at our rate divided by 6.5, there's 29 nations on the list with lower rates. That's 40% of the nations on that list where our level of violence compared to theirs looks like the worst place in the world compared to us.

We are actually highest per capita homocide when considering "developed" countries. Reform is needed with guns here but eradication isnt the answer,there are too many at this point.

 

[Sbee]

We are actually highest per capita homocide when considering "developed" countries. Reform is needed with guns here but eradication isnt the answer,there are too many at this point.

Like I said, we'll never get rid of guns, we're the gun country and we love to shoot each other. We don't discriminate though, our government likes to kill foreigners too.

 

[Thumb]

I thought it was "against the rules" of progressive left to own a gun but there are so many I know that do. Do as I say...not as I do..... the hypocrisy continues...

I don't think gun ownership was ever a real issue. It was more about gun control, limiting the available types of firearms such as assault weapons, and stricter background checks. As far as CCW or open carry, you would think common sense would make it obvious that it would have more of a negative impact than anything.

I'm about as far left as a person can get, and I own all kinds of guns. But, I have never carried one around, except when in the field/woods hunting, or even kept one loaded when not doing the same. I support most of the gun control ideals out there, short of taking all guns away from everyone.

 

[spockmaster]

Part of it is our society. Canada has 1/3 the guns per capita that we do (30.8 vs 90), but 1/5 the gun deaths (2.2 vs 10.3). Serbia is 2nd for gun ownership per capita (69.7 vs 90), a bit more than 2/3 of ours, but only a bit more than 1/3 our gun deaths per capita (3.9 vs 10.3). We just love killing each other with guns.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

 

[Spartan23MSU]

I don't think gun ownership was ever a real issue. It was more about gun control, limiting the available types of firearms such as assault weapons, and stricter background checks. As far as CCW or open carry, you would think common sense would make it obvious that it would have more of a negative impact than anything.

I'm about as far left as a person can get, and I own all kinds of guns. But, I have never carried one around, except when in the field/woods hunting, or even kept one loaded when not doing the same. I support most of the gun control ideals out there, short of taking all guns away from everyone.

Im with you on that, I own dozens and inherited most of them. I dont have CCW but have thought about it for long trips in the car through questionable areas etc. bringing one into the store to get some cold cuts is largely unnecessary. There are too many hot heads out there and there will be intoxicated people that have them and we all know that is a bad formula. Im 75% conservative and CCW isnt a good idea in my opinion

 

[Thumb]

I dont have CCW but have thought about it for long trips in the car through questionable areas etc.

This right here is the wrong idea. If you're going through a questionable area (assuming you have valid reason to do so in the first place) the chances of something happening are actually pretty slim. But even if you were carjacked, or robbed, or something, it's still very unlikely you would come to any serious harm. Now introduce a gun in to that same situation, and the likelihood of someone getting shot increases exponentially. Having a gun probably makes you less safe, not more.

This is what the gun nuts don't understand. When someone with a gun is being stared down by someone else with a gun, it's not a deterrent, it's a challenge.

Also, most people are not good enough (accurate/safe) with a gun. Now I'm sure you will say you are, as most people do. But even police as well trained as they are supposed to be, don't do all that well when they start shooting.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

This right here is the wrong idea. If you're going through a questionable area (assuming you have valid reason to do so in the first place) the chances of something happening are actually pretty slim. But even if you were carjacked, or robbed, or something, it's still very unlikely you would come to any serious harm. Now introduce a gun in to that same situation, and the likelihood of someone getting shot increases exponentially. Having a gun probably makes you less safe, not more.

This is what the gun nuts don't understand. When someone with a gun is being stared down by someone else with a gun, it's not a deterrent, it's a challenge.

Also, most people are not good enough (accurate/safe) with a gun. Now I'm sure you will say you are, as most people do. But even police as well trained as they are supposed to be, don't do all that well when they start shooting.

Valid points, like i said im more against ccw than for it.

 

[Spartanmack]

This study is a great example of how people use data to fool lazy and/or stupid people. This is not the number of concealed carry, street justice, vigilante shootings. It's totally misleading.

First, 262 (36%) of the deaths were either suicides or murder suicides - a guy sitting in his basement shoots himself or worse, shoots his wife, brother, mother, whoever then shoots himself AND he happens to have a concealed carry permit so he gets lumped into the data of this study. Attributing these deaths to concealed carry is misleading and irresponsible and it overstates the number of "concealed carry killings" by more than 56% - that's huge. How does a study like this get through peer review?

So now you're left with 460 deaths over 8 years or roughly 58 per year - 58 more than anyone would like but hardly an epidemic.

Then the study goes on to say that of those 460, 177 of the shooters were convicted of various crimes related to the shootings - that's 39%. That's pretty high and is a clear indication that we're not just letting people blow other citizens away and get away w/ a simple claim of self-defense. But, it also says only 16 cases were ruled lawful self-defense. Bull shit. I'll take the over on that ALL DAY LONG. Either the study is excluding obvious cases where no charges were filed and therefore no trial verdict or they're excluding cases that technically weren't ruled self-defense but also had no conviction or maybe they're excluding shootings by off-duty law enforcement, like the recent one in the Oklahoma factory - probably all of the above unless you think more than half the cases from the last 8 years are still pending a decision.

Finally, the piece provides no context or baseline to show how concealed carry has affected gun deaths over time. It doesn't even show the trendline during the period of the study. Has it gotten worse or better? Or is this inline with prior data before concealed carry became prolific (if it even has become prolific - I doubt it, but I don't know). It also says nothing about crime rates before and after concealed carry. As far as I can tell, we're just supposed to see that 722 number and be appalled by it and call our reps in congress to demand gun confiscation or at a minimum as much gun control as we can get RIGHT NOW!

But why take a closer look at the data - this is the New York Times after all and a study by the Violence Policy Center which is funded by nice people with only the purist of intentions - not evil profits. And as has been made clear here many times before, if there's no profit motive, then there's no misleading shenanigans.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I don't think gun ownership was ever a real issue. It was more about gun control, limiting the available types of firearms such as assault weapons, and stricter background checks.

It's not about assault weapons. Not statistically. It's a political and emotional thing and it gets far more attention than the percentage of homicides they play a role in.

I suspect the physical size of a gun plays a bigger roles than a gun's capabilities and smaller is more convenient. If you could wave a magic wand and turn all the handguns in the country into assault rifles, I think homicide rates would go down.