Surprise, surprise, surprise: More guns = more shootings.

[Michchamp]

there were 544 shooting incidents, resulting in 722 deaths.

of those 455 are resolved (218 suicides, 177 convictions, 44 murder-suicides, 16 shooters killed in the incident)

that leaves 89 incidents remaining, 60 are pending murder charges, 4 were insane people who won't stand trial (glad they could get CCW permits...) 5 are still under investigation, and 20 were unintentional/accidental shooting deaths with no charges.

not a lot of wiggle room if you're trying to say these numbers & my point here don't hold up.

 

[Michchamp]

Which leaves about 200 unaccounted for.

the next sentence, which I didn't include, explains that a few of the incidents cited were mass-shootings... so that's why there are fewer incidents than deaths.

 

[Gulo Blue]

the next sentence, which I didn't include, explains that a few of the incidents cited were mass-shootings... so that's why there are fewer incidents than deaths.

OK. I think I see it. 544 incidents, 44 murder suicides, and 136 mass shooting victims in 28 incidents gets you to 696.

 

[Michchamp]

OK. I think I see it. 544 incidents, 44 murder suicides, and 136 mass shooting victims in 28 incidents gets you to 696.

glad you finally got up to speed here, Einstein.

 

[Gulo Blue]

glad you finally got up to speed here, Einstein.

It bugs me that I don't see a way to get 722 out of these numbers. Not enough to get a sheet of paper and figure out what's wrong, but it bugs me.

 

[Spartanmack]

Which leaves about 200 unaccounted for.

I think it's actually 89 that are unaccounted for. It appears that this data is a breakdown of the 544 incidents which account for 722 deaths so they are counting multiple body count situations as a single incident. I'm not sure what the motivation for that is - based on these numbers, murder suicides (assuming just 2 deaths per incident) lowers their impact from 12.2% of the total to just 8.1%. It also doesn't say what the people were convicted of - in Connecticut, you can (and are likely to) be charged with a crime for shooting an armed intruder in your own home.

Edit: looks like I'm a little late on that one - started the post then got busy at work. sorry for that.

 

[byco42]

There are more than 11,000,000 active CCW permits in the U.S. 7,000,000 more than eight years ago. That makes the kill rate among CCW permit holders at .004%. And the crime rate among CCW-permit holders has not increased since the number of permits has almost tripled.

 

[Spartanmack]

There are more than 11,000,000 active CCW permits in the U.S. 7,000,000 more than eight years ago. That makes the kill rate among CCW permit holders at .004%. And the crime rate among CCW-permit holders has not increased since the number of permits has almost tripled.

Close thread.

 

[Thumb]

There are more than 11,000,000 active CCW permits in the U.S. 7,000,000 more than eight years ago. That makes the kill rate among CCW permit holders at .004%. And the crime rate among CCW-permit holders has not increased since the number of permits has almost tripled.

So?

Has the shooting rate increased is the only issue. Wouldn't expect the crime rate to be tied to CCW. Why would someone committing crimes want to legally carry a gun.

Besides, I'd bet a good number of crimes committed with guns were with guns that could not be registered anyways because they were stolen or sold on the black market.

Of course you could also be arguing that the reason crime has not increased is because of those CCW's, but then you would be making a big assumption.

 

[byco42]

So?

Has the shooting rate increased is the only issue. Wouldn't expect the crime rate to be tied to CCW. Why would someone committing crimes want to legally carry a gun.

The crime rate among CCW-permit holders has been .02% since 1988. And I can't make that point any better.

Besides, I'd bet a good number of crimes committed with guns were with guns that could not be registered anyways because they were stolen or sold on the black market.

I neglected to mention that this .02% accounts for all crimes whether or not a handgun was involved.

 

[Spartanmack]

So?

Has the shooting rate increased is the only issue. Wouldn't expect the crime rate to be tied to CCW. Why would someone committing crimes want to legally carry a gun.

Besides, I'd bet a good number of crimes committed with guns were with guns that could not be registered anyways because they were stolen or sold on the black market.

Of course you could also be arguing that the reason crime has not increased is because of those CCW's, but then you would be making a big assumption.

"Crime" among CCW permit holders would include murders and other shooting related crimes (like manslaughter, assault with a deadly weapon, etc) committed by CCW carriers. Those crimes are included in the data that shows the crime rate among CCW carriers hasn't gone up. And if we go with your assumption that CCW carriers wouldn't use their legal guns to commit crimes (like robberies and muggings), then there most likely isn't an increase in shooting related crimes that is being watered down by a decrease in other crimes by CCW permit holders.

 

[sggatecl]

I own two handguns and a CCW permit. I don't think anyone outside of my household with the exception of my father even knows.

It's the fanatical morons carrying assault rifles on their back as they go have lunch in a Chipoltle that terrify non gun owners into having negative opinions on CCW. Being extreme in your point of view, as in most cases, is a terrible way to make a statement.

 

[Michchamp]

Has it? I don't see a lot of gun advertisements. It's been used a lot in the BS political arguments over rules nobody is really trying to change ...

I think you underestimate the effectiveness of this argument. I've heard it trotted out by every Rightwing family member - none of whom actually own guns themselves - whenever the topic comes up. and the article I posted in gave one example of testimony about the effectiveness of CCW holders in combating & preventing crime helping convince a state legislature to pass a CCW bill... and I guaran-fucking-tee that wasn't the only instance, since gun sales advocates (I.e. the NRA) operate from a playbook. they say the same crap everytime they get up on stage.

so it is significant, and the evidence showing it's false is significant also. when shootings involving CCW holders occur, it's exceedingly rare they've actually been used to oppose a criminal act.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I think you underestimate the effectiveness of this argument. I've heard it trotted out by every Rightwing family member - none of whom actually own guns themselves.

I'm not sure how your story applies to gun sales unless your family sells guns. It didn't convince them to buy.

I'm not saying I know this argument isn't used to sell guns. Just that I only hear it in political arguments and I don't know what's going on with gun sales.

 

[Michchamp]

I'm not sure how your story applies to gun sales unless your family sells guns. It didn't convince them to buy.

I'm not saying I know this argument isn't used to sell guns. Just that I only hear it in political arguments and I don't know what's going on with gun sales.

I use that as an example of how effective the argument is. even people who don't use/own guns repeat it.

rhetoric is not totally removed from having real world effects; quite the contrary. these baseless statements about the effectiveness of firearms in solving just about every program known to man need to be addressed and done away with.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I haven't found good number yet, but I have found a couple stories that say rates are soaring. I'm skeptical that the self-defense argument drives it. No doubt gun buyers believe it, but that's an ancient argument. Why would it lead to a spike in sales right now? The political arguing, on the other hand, is almost like using the press as your advertising. "Get your guns now before Obama takes them away." and all that.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It looks like gun sales records were set in 2012 and 2013. 19.6M background checks then 21M background checks. No idea how that compares to the 90's or 80's, but they're calling it a record (how long has it been required. Is this like recruiting rankings where records are hit all the time because there's only 10 years of data?) There are stories of gun sales slumping in 2014, but I don't see numbers. Apparently there was a big Black Friday for guns in 2014.

But if gun sales are up, we'd actually have inverse correlation between gun ownership and homicides...and you'd think the NRA would be screaming from every corner with a bullhorn and being sure I can find gun sale data to make this connection.

 

[Michchamp]

It looks like gun sales records were set in 2012 and 2013. 19.6M background checks then 21M background checks. No idea how that compares to the 90's or 80's, but they're calling it a record (how long has it been required. Is this like recruiting rankings where records are hit all the time because there's only 10 years of data?) There are stories of gun sales slumping in 2014, but I don't see numbers. Apparently there was a big Black Friday for guns in 2014.

But if gun sales are up, we'd actually have inverse correlation between gun ownership and homicides...and you'd think the NRA would be screaming from every corner with a bullhorn and being sure I can find gun sale data to make this connection.

crime rates have been falling across the board, regardless of how many guns people own, since the mid 90's. certainly there are a few outliers here and there, but that's the trend.

I just saw an article that showed there was no correlation/connection/wahtever between incarceration rates & crime. That was another supposed reason for it.

You know what that leaves... as discussed before... Lead.

 

[Michchamp]

Wrong:

LOL:

 

[tigersofjustice]

I own two handguns and a CCW permit. I don't think anyone outside of my household with the exception of my father even knows.

It's the fanatical morons carrying assault rifles on their back as they go have lunch in a Chipoltle that terrify non gun owners into having negative opinions on CCW. Being extreme in your point of view, as in most cases, is a terrible way to make a statement.

Why do you concealed carry? Is there an actual reason based on life events?