The Official Minnesota vs ][V][ichigan Game Thread

[Spartanmack]

If you're forbidding the discounting of ancient history, then you have to consider Princeton and Yale to be two of the all time powerhouse programs.

Don't forget THE University of Chicago...

 

[Gulo Blue]

Don't forget THE University of Chicago...

I kind of want them in the Big Ten...lots would have to change. But they're a rival!

 

[TheVictors]

you couldn't get into MICHIGAN, you couldn't get into either Yale or Harvard.



so your alma mater still sucks by historical comparison both academically and athletically, sbee

 

[zyxt9]

If you're forbidding the discounting of ancient history, then you have to consider Princeton and Yale to be two of the all time powerhouse programs.

They ARE two of the All Time powerhouse programs. Just because their championships were early on, there is zero reason to exclude them when using the term "All Time"

Alexander the Great is regarded as one of the All Time greatest military minds. Even with modern capabilities, no one has conquered the amount of territory he did in such little time.

Greece today isn't a Super Power. Could they one day return to that level? It might be unlikely, but certainly not impossible. Regardless, AtG is pretty much universally admired by historians, especially military historians as opposed to ridiculed for fighting during the "leather helmet era".

 

[bphillips4gg]

They ARE two of the All Time powerhouse programs. Just because their championships were early on, there is zero reason to exclude them when using the term "All Time"

Alexander the Great is regarded as one of the All Time greatest military minds. Even with modern capabilities, no one has conquered the amount of territory he did in such little time.

Greece today isn't a Super Power. Could they one day return to that level? It might be unlikely, but certainly not impossible. Regardless, AtG is pretty much universally admired by historians, especially military historians as opposed to ridiculed for fighting during the "leather helmet era".

Zyxt, you can't reason with a moron.

 

[Sbee]

you couldn't get into MICHIGAN, you couldn't get into either Yale or Harvard.



so your alma mater still sucks by historical comparison both academically and athletically, sbee

What does that say about the majority of posters on this board that didn't go to Michigan?

 

[Sbee]

They ARE two of the All Time powerhouse programs. Just because their championships were early on, there is zero reason to exclude them when using the term "All Time"

Alexander the Great is regarded as one of the All Time greatest military minds. Even with modern capabilities, no one has conquered the amount of territory he did in such little time.

Greece today isn't a Super Power. Could they one day return to that level? It might be unlikely, but certainly not impossible. Regardless, AtG is pretty much universally admired by historians, especially military historians as opposed to ridiculed for fighting during the "leather helmet era".

None of that relates to football but carry on if you like. My point was that UM is up by 6 games since msu joined the big ten. I don't think being up by 6 games over 6+ decades since we were put on equal footing is domination. You guys did dominate us big time during the leather helmet era. We played pretty much exclusively in Ann Arbor prior to msu joining the conference.

 

[Spartanmack]

They ARE two of the All Time powerhouse programs. Just because their championships were early on, there is zero reason to exclude them when using the term "All Time"

Alexander the Great is regarded as one of the All Time greatest military minds. Even with modern capabilities, no one has conquered the amount of territory he did in such little time.

Greece today isn't a Super Power. Could they one day return to that level? It might be unlikely, but certainly not impossible. Regardless, AtG is pretty much universally admired by historians, especially military historians as opposed to ridiculed for fighting during the "leather helmet era".

so is Florida one of the best of all time? they've won a few championships (all since 1996) but didn't even win their first SEC title until 1991. Seems like there should be a little more consistency when you're talking about the "all time" greats.

 

[Gulo Blue]

1968 is when the AP went from ranking 10 to 20 teams and started doing their final ranking at the end of the season, after bowl games.

Since then, Michigan is 32-16 vs MSU.

A big deal has been made over this "7 of 8" run of MSU's, and it seems like just about any Spartan can quote that number. But you may be surprised to know that in the 8 years before this run, Michigan won 7. I don't recall anyone ever making a big deal about that though.

 

[rumseyhouse77]

Zyxt, you can't reason with a moron.

This. My Ma and Dad taught me this back in the leather helmet era and it is still true today.

 

[zyxt9]

so is Florida one of the best of all time? they've won a few championships (all since 1996) but didn't even win their first SEC title until 1991. Seems like there should be a little more consistency when you're talking about the "all time" greats.

Princeton's 1st NC: 1869. They had continued success with winning NCs every decade until the 1936-1949 drought, but one another in 1950. Granted many of these are split NCs, but an NC is an NC. Also, yes, obviously several were seasons when they were 1-0...but that's still better than 0-1. They have 804 wins in 1253 games for a .662 win %. Yale has an even better record with 884 wins in 1301 games for a .701 win %. Yale also had its first NC in 1872 and similarly won NCs repeatedly until 1909, then had a drought until 1927.

Despite their NC droughts, both team have continued winning games and have over 800 total victories. While the talent pool may have been less in the early days, the ability to have an 8+ win with 0 loss seasons should never be undervalued.

As for Florida, they are not in consideration. They have had longevity with 691 wins in 1131 games for a .629 win % and are currently #20 on the All Time win % ranking list. Any team in the top 20 in win % should be in considered an impressive program, but there is a big difference between being on a list of All Time great programs and All Time Best/Greatest though. UM and ND are at the top of that list based on their Wins and Win %, it is arguable for either to claim that title. Back when UM held both it was a little easier, but the RR&Hoke era obviously hurt that. Hopefully within 10 years, UM holds both again.

Now Boise State is interesting because they are actually currently #3 on the All Time Win % list. However, they only have 565 games for their .724 Win %. To me, it is a little unfair to compare them against teams with twice as many games, so I think the threshold should be a program playing 1000 games is a reasonable threshold. Once they reach that, if they are still over .700 then there is room for arguing in favor of them being an All Time Great program.

Maybe .650+ should be the requirement for All-Time Impressive and .700 for All-Time Great. If you wish to apply that, then Princeton would drop down to Impressive but Yale would still be a Great program. Unfortunately MSU is currently at just over .600; however, their current level of performance is building up the potential for them to attain the Impressive status, but the Great level might not be achievable for a very long time.

Not knocking what MSU has done in the last decade, but we are talking about sustained high levels of play with understanding there will be drop offs over time...but the maintaining of All Time greatness does not allow for truncated years because it, by definition, is ALL TIME.

Much depends on how you choose to break it down, but any program with over 1000 games played and a .700 win % should be in consideration. This may need to be bumped up to 1500 games in the future so that it takes into account over 100 years of football existence (more games per year now than in past). If a school maintains .700+ over 100 years, they are pretty worthy of being in consideration IMO...so maybe Boise needs to cross that threshold before being in consideration. I personally think that is a legit requirement, but others may feel 50 years is sufficient. Still a .724 win % to be #3 on the list is very impressive for a smaller school.

In case you are wondering, the 1000 games threshold will be met by 90 teams by the end of this year, with Rutgers being #1 at 1301 followed by Navy and Michigan. So the 1500 games threshold is many years away from being reasonable, but the 1000 games is currently appropriate.

 

[TheVictors]

die thread, die!!!!!

 

[zyxt9]

Spartys are upset they cannot be considered an all time great football program instead of enjoying a decade of success.

 

[Michlady]

And why is this thread still going?

 

[zyxt9]

Because Spartys are butt hurt.

 

[Spartanmack]

Spartys are upset they cannot be considered an all time great football program instead of enjoying a decade of success.

Florida is not in consideration? Then why did ESPN rank them among the top 15 programs of all time? Personally, I agree - Florida was a non-entity before Spurier, but others say otherwise. To me their claim as one of the all time great programs is about as legitimate as some has been ivy league schools that for decades have been playing barely better than high school level football.

I never said anything about MSU's legacy. If you make a stupid statement like a couple, let alone one Ivy League school deserves to be considered among the all time time greatest programs because they shared some NC's in a totally different era, and someone who happens to be a Spartan fan calls you out for it, that doesn't mean they're upset. It just means they think what you said was dumb.

 

[zyxt9]

Level of competition is a relative thing. If a high school program manages to have a .700+ win % over 100 years / 1000 games, they would probably be on the All Time Great teams list for high school. Yale might be in 2nd tier of talent currently, but they have maintained a .700 win %. It isnt like they have a bunch of Heisman candidates playing against powder puff girls, the talent level is pretty level. To have that many sustained wins means they have a great program.

ESPN ranking Florida in top 15 is a stretch, but looking at fact they are #20 on win % list with Old Dominion (I think that was the school ranked #3 or 4) and Boise State being relative newbies who shouldn't be there, that would put the at #18 (unless there are a few others above them who don't deserve to be). Still, it is obvious they were pandering to SEC who only had Bama in top 10. Oh, and ESPNsucks...well...sucks.

Sorry for misunderstanding your MSU stance, but the leather helmet barbs get old because they have no merit. There were good teams in those early days and they do not deserve ridicule due to their era. Those guys played hard and earned those wins. They established foundations of expectation for the future teams and those teams had to sustain that level through 1000+ games. You cannot cherry pick dates when looking at All Time success, it is All Time by definition. Plenty of teams lost games during that era too, just like teams lose games today.