The Torture Report

[Michchamp]

I haven't read the actual report yet, only commentary on it from a variety of sources. Sounds like it confirms pretty much everything everyone who wasn't a torturer, member of the Bush Administration, stupid, or both - from the FBI to whistleblowers in the CIA - have been saying for years: torture was not necessary, and it was ineffective; it produced no actionable intelligence, instead many false confessions, and given this, was actually counter-productive to national security, leading to false alarms, wasted resources and pointless investigations.

There's a broad spectrum of reactions to it, ranging from nuanced to outright-parroting the CIA's claims this will result in further bloodshed.

...of course Fox News goes with a strictly partisan angle, ignoring the fact that the White House, and John Kerry took pains to get the Senate Intelligence Committee to bury it, and failing that, allowed the CIA to water it down (no pun intended) prior to finally releasing it...

no, you need to read the Guardian for that information.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Good old terrorists..I think we should give them Citizenship and a new suit. I don't care if they don't torture these ass holes but I won't get bent out shape when they do..they're terrorists. Put one in the head for all I care..save a lot of money.

 

[Michchamp]

Good old terrorists..I think we should give them Citizenship and a new suit. I don't care if they don't torture these ass holes but I won't get bent out shape when they do..they're terrorists. Put one in the head for all I care..save a lot of money.

Well some number of people tortured were not actually terrorists, & had nothing to do with terrorism as the report makes clear. Does that bother you?

 

[Gulo Blue]

Good old terrorists..I think we should give them Citizenship and a new suit. I don't care if they don't torture these ass holes but I won't get bent out shape when they do..they're terrorists. Put one in the head for all I care..save a lot of money.

I was just going to ask if there was anyone here that wasn't against torture, but it looks like I've got my answer.

So...you're not really concerned with being a nation of laws then? You just trust the government, whoever that might be this year, will get these things right?

 

[tinselwolverine]

I could have heard it wrong, but I thought I heard that's a report actually only goes back to stuff that has happened since 2009.

 

[Michchamp]

Here is the report: credit to FoxNews over ABC news... Fox actually linked to the thing.

Tinsel, the report goes back to 2001; the commission began research into the practices in 2009. The report itself hasn't been released (it's 6700 pages), only the 500 page executive summary, with obvious and extensive CIA redactions, that the Committee apparently had to fight to keep from being even worse. I suppose if the CIA had their way, they would've released 500 pages that were just one big black box on each page.

 

[Michchamp]

From Sen. Feinstein's intro :

"As the Study describes, prior to the attacks of September 2001, the CIA itself determined from its own experience with coercive interrogations, that such techniques "do not produce intelligence," "will probably result in false answers," and had historically proven to be ineffective.

Yet these conclusions were ignored. We cannot again allow history to be forgotten and grievous past mistakes to be repeated."
​

also the treaties we've signed barring torture require those violating these treaties be prosecuted. Obama has publicly stated "We need to look forward, not back" or something along those lines, regarding this issue. No... we need to uphold the law. We need to prosecute those responsible for violating these laws. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen though.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Michchamp, no not people who aren't terrorists. That's wrong..

Sorry Red but Terrorists are not human IMO and don't deserve to be treated like one. Granted you hope you get valuable info. from that but I'm sure not crying for a terrorist who kill Americans..

 

[Thumb]

Sorry Red but Terrorists are not human IMO and don't deserve to be treated like one.

That's what Hitler said about Jews.

 

[Mitchrapp]

That's what Hitler said about Jews.

But Jews didn't try and kill Germans..so I'm Hitler now?

If you think they deserve to go to an American court .. that's fine. Fucked up but fine.

 

[Michchamp]

I don't think the mere assertion from someone in the White House, the CIA or the Pentagon that one is a terrorist should be enough to actually make them a terrorist, subject to torture, execution, indefinite detention, etc. especially since, as this Report shows, these people are often wrong. and how.

but... that's why our Forefathers drafted the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights the way they did.

How many times did you flunk high school civics & history again, mitch?

 

[Mitchrapp]

I don't think the mere assertion from someone in the White House, the CIA or the Pentagon that one is a terrorist should be enough to actually make them a terrorist, subject to torture, execution, indefinite detention, etc. especially since, as this Report shows, these people are often wrong. and how.

but... that's why our Forefathers drafted the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights the way they did.

How many times did you flunk high school civics & history again, mitch?

If they're wrong then it's wrong. I'm not saying I'm okay with all torture and I don't care if it doesn't happen. I'm not here wishing and hoping for torture. But a 9-11 attacker, he can rot in torture hell..

 

[Thumb]

But Jews didn't try and kill Germans..so I'm Hitler now?

If you think they deserve to go to an American court .. that's fine. Fucked up but fine.

The point Mitch, is it's not up to us to decide who's human and who's not. Otherwise we are NO BETTER than them. And you trying to justify the reason you feel that way, is no different than how Hitler justified how he felt about Jews.

We are a country built laws and guaranteed freedoms. That is our biggest claim as a nation, so how can we disregard our core foundations and values simple because the other guys have none.

I genuinely feel sorry for people who don't understand this.

 

[Mitchrapp]

The point Mitch, is it's not up to us to decide who's human and who's not. Otherwise we are NO BETTER than them. And you trying to justify the reason you feel that way, is no different than how Hitler justified how he felt about Jews.

We are a country built laws and guaranteed freedoms. That is our biggest claim as a nation, so how can we disregard our core foundations and values simple because the other guys have none.

I genuinely feel sorry for people who don't understand this.

I just don't feel Terrorists have the same rights under the constitution as you or I.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Here is the report: credit to FoxNews over ABC news... Fox actually linked to the thing.

Tinsel, the report goes back to 2001; the commission began research into the practices in 2009.

Oh.

That must have been what I heard about 2009 then.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Michchamp, no not people who aren't terrorists. That's wrong..

Sorry Red but Terrorists are not human IMO and don't deserve to be treated like one. Granted you hope you get valuable info. from that but I'm sure not crying for a terrorist who kill Americans..

I'm not even asking for your sympathy. I'm asking if you think we should have people out there that get to make the rules up as they go with the power of judge, jury, and whatever they feel like comes next.

By what process do you determine who the terrorists are? Just trust whoever's hired by whoever's appointed by whoever's elected to look them in the eye and know?

 

[Mitchrapp]

I'm not even asking for your sympathy. I'm asking if you think we should have people out there that get to make the rules up as they go with the power of judge, jury, and whatever they feel like comes next.

By what process do you determine who the terrorists are? Just trust whoever's hired by whoever's appointed by whoever's elected to look them in the eye and know?

I don't trust them all, no. And I don't want the wronged or innocents mistreated. But there are Terrorists out there that we know of..I have no sympathy for them.

 

[byco42]

I anticipate reading the ISIS report on torture. That said, torture is pointless. Don't need a government report to make that point. JFK wanted to cast the CIA into a 1,000 pieces. This legacy of power abuse of the CIA goes back to Operation Paperclip.

 

[Spartanmack]

I just don't feel Terrorists have the same rights under the constitution as you or I.

It's not a matter of feeling or opinion. Unless the terrorists are American citizens, they don't have the same rights.

 

[Michchamp]

It's not a matter of feeling or opinion. Unless the terrorists are American citizens, they don't have the same rights.

The restrictions on government action (in this case: don't torture) aren't limited to US citizens. "Not being tortured" isn't a "right" it's a restriction on government action.