Tigers interested in + now with agreement in place for Joakim Soria

[SouthOfMackinac]

Look at Drew's splits this season, faces almost 3 times as many RHB and isn't effective getting them out, .900+ OPS. So maybe DD gives a shit but he shouldn't..

He faces all those RHBs because other teams change their lineups against him which is the point of having a left handed starter.

 

[Mitchrapp]

He faces all those RHBs because other teams change their lineups against him which is the point of having a left handed starter.

My point was get a better starter, even if he's a RHP over keeping Smyly just because he's a lefty. And that isn't to say I mind Smyly as a back of a rotation guy but in general wanting a LHP just because he throws LH is not smart. Get the best 5, not the best 4 and add a LHP.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Case in point..other 4 starters are much better against LHB than Drew is against RHB. And of course they're all better against RHB as well. So unless he gets the chance to pitch against a fully loaded LHB team..there is absolutely no advantage.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Case in point..other 4 starters are much better against LHB than Drew is against RHB. And of course they're all better against RHB as well. So unless he gets the chance to pitch against a fully loaded LHB team..there is absolutely no advantage.

Did you make this up or did you do some research?

RH hitters vs. JV, Smyly and Porcello

JV .332/.382/.512
Smyly .314/.378/.531
Ricky P. .262/.287/.422

LH Hitters vs. JV, Smyly and Porcello
JV .242/.316/.377
Smyly .157/.181/.255
Ricky P. .246/.301/.377

LH Hitters with a .436 OPS against Smyly. He is facing the same teams as the other guys but those teams change up their lineups because it is stupid to bat left handed hitters against Drew.

Smyly is one of the best fifth starters around and continues to improve and learn. Creating diversity in a rotation is not the end-all-be-all (as we saw the last few seasons) but when you have the personnell a GM like DD and an idiot like myself would rather have the variety. Drew makes other managers adjust their approach before gametime by changing how they fill out their lineup card. You can say that is useless and we'll just have to disagree.

 

[Thumb]

I have never been a fan of left handed starting pitchers. Now if you have a guy who has sick stuff, and happens to be a lefty (Cliff Lee, CC Sabathia, Chris Sale for a few examples) that's one thing, but to insist on having a starter that will most likely give in to the splits on any given night makes no sense. The majority of MLB hitters bat right-handed and have higher splits across the board facing LHP.

No disrespect to Drew, but he does not have sick stuff. Book is still out on Ray, but I'm leaning towards average there as well.

Now I'm not saying Smyly should not be a starter, or Ray or anyone else for that matter, but if the reasoning for having a guy in the rotation is "DD insists on having a lefty in the rotation" then that's just dumb.

And just because nobody kicked that dead horse today; if we gave up Fister a full 2 years early because we needed a lefty starter in our rotation just for giggles, someone in the front office needs a lobotomy.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I have never been a fan of left handed starting pitchers. Now if you have a guy who has sick stuff, and happens to be a lefty (Cliff Lee, CC Sabathia, Chris Sale for a few examples) that's one thing, but to insist on having a starter that will most likely give in to the splits on any given night makes no sense. The majority of MLB hitters bat right-handed and have higher splits across the board facing LHP.

No disrespect to Drew, but he does not have sick stuff. Book is still out on Ray, but I'm leaning towards average there as well.

Now I'm not saying Smyly should not be a starter, or Ray or anyone else for that matter, but if the reasoning for having a guy in the rotation is "DD insists on having a lefty in the rotation" then that's just dumb.

And just because nobody kicked that dead horse today; if we gave up Fister a full 2 years early because we needed a lefty starter in our rotation just for giggles, someone in the front office needs a lobotomy.

"DD insists on having a lefty in the rotation" you put that in quotes but show me who you are quoting. Quoting things that weren't said is not an effective debating strategy. If he "insisted" then the rotation would have had lefties the last two season. He (and I agree) has said that ideally he would like to have a lefty in the rotation. I agree putting a crappy one in the rotation just to have one is STUPID.

He gave up Fister because he felt he already had a fifth starter who was cheap (Drew) and he felt that Rick was ready to be the fourth (which he obviously is). I'll dig that horse up and take a whack at those bones. He saw Fister as a four and should have valued him as a two or three when dealing him.

 

[Thumb]

"DD insists on having a lefty in the rotation" you put that in quotes but show me who you are quoting. Quoting things that weren't said is not an effective debating strategy. If he "insisted" then the rotation would have had lefties the last two season. He (and I agree) has said that ideally he would like to have a lefty in the rotation. I agree putting a crappy one in the rotation just to have one is STUPID.

He gave up Fister because he felt he already had a fifth starter who was cheap (Drew) and he felt that Rick was ready to be the fourth (which he obviously is). I'll dig that horse up and take a whack at those bones. He saw Fister as a four and should have valued him as a two or three when dealing him.

I never claimed anyone made that exact quote, don't start being silly. But several posters have posted that as the very reason Smyly is in the rotation, and why Fister needed to be traded, maybe you can search old threads for it?

As far as your second paragraph, you're just speculating about the reason he traded him, which still is not a legitimate reason.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I never claimed anyone made that exact quote, don't start being silly. But several posters have posted that as the very reason Smyly is in the rotation, and why Fister needed to be traded, maybe you can search old threads for it?

As far as your second paragraph, you're just speculating about the reason he traded him, which still is not a legitimate reason.

Silly me for thinking a quote means someone was being quoted. What was I thinking?

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I never claimed anyone made that exact quote, don't start being silly. But several posters have posted that as the very reason Smyly is in the rotation, and why Fister needed to be traded, maybe you can search old threads for it?

As far as your second paragraph, you're just speculating about the reason he traded him, which still is not a legitimate reason.

I am speculating and I see both of those as legitimate reasons to make the trade. You don't so we differ in opinion.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Did you make this up or did you do some research?

RH hitters vs. JV, Smyly and Porcello

JV .332/.382/.512
Smyly .314/.378/.531
Ricky P. .262/.287/.422

LH Hitters vs. JV, Smyly and Porcello
JV .242/.316/.377
Smyly .157/.181/.255
Ricky P. .246/.301/.377

LH Hitters with a .436 OPS against Smyly. He is facing the same teams as the other guys but those teams change up their lineups because it is stupid to bat left handed hitters against Drew.

Smyly is one of the best fifth starters around and continues to improve and learn. Creating diversity in a rotation is not the end-all-be-all (as we saw the last few seasons) but when you have the personnell a GM like DD and an idiot like myself would rather have the variety. Drew makes other managers adjust their approach before gametime by changing how they fill out their lineup card. You can say that is useless and we'll just have to disagree.

I'm going by OPS in which my statement was right. As far as Drew's vs LHB, like I said unless he is facing a team full of them there is no advantage ..none. because when those LH take the day off the replacements are batting a hefty .900+ OPS.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I'm going by OPS in which my statement was right. As far as Drew's vs LHB, like I said unless he is facing a team full of them there is no advantage ..none. because when those LH take the day off the replacements are batting a hefty .900+ OPS.

Verlander has a .894 OPS against Right Handers. Smyly has a .909 OPS against RHs.

When it comes to shutting down his natural advantage Smyly is way beyond JV with a .436 OPS against LH's vs. Verlander's .694 against LH's.

Overall JV has a .778 OPS against and Smyly has a .772. Smyly can shut down one side of the plate and against RH's he is virtually the same as JV. Still want to say you're right?

 

[Mitchrapp]

Verlander has a .894 OPS against Right Handers. Smyly has a .909 OPS against RHs.

When it comes to shutting down his natural advantage Smyly is way beyond JV with a .436 OPS against LH's vs. Verlander's .694 against LH's.

Overall JV has a .778 OPS against and Smyly has a .772. Smyly can shut down one side of the plate and against RH's he is virtually the same as JV. Still want to say you're right?

.894 is better than .909. I realize 2014, Smyly has been similar to JV but the point remains. He should be kept because he's one of the top 5 not because he's a lefty..

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

.894 is better than .909. I realize 2014, Smyly has been similar to JV but the point remains. He should be kept because he's one of the top 5 not because he's a lefty..

Your contention was "much" better. .015 doesn't correlate for me but if it does for you then you win. You probably don't want to address that Smyly has a lower overall OPS against than JV I imagine.

Smyly is in the rotation because he is one of the top 5 starters in the Tiger organization. The fact he is lefty is a bonus. DD nor I ever said he was there because he's a lefty. We like the diversity and see benefit. You don't and that is noted.

 

[UMRules06]

I have always thought that having a lefty in the rotation is good (if it's viable), because it throws off the timing of the hitters having to face say a R-L-R rotation in a series. I wonder if there's any way to isolate data on hitters facing a right handed starter the day after facing a left handed starter? Anything to throw off the timing of batters is helpful.

 

[Thundercats]

How the hell can anyone justify a reliever being a trade headliner? You'd be trading good prospects for a guy who pitches maybe 60-70 innings a year? That's just wrong. If you get a guy who can pitch for 200 innings as well, then you have a deal. If not a 200 inning starting pitcher, then you better get a better than average hitter that fills a hole. DD needs to stop being nonchalant. It's a lot easier to build a bullpen in the offseason, and needs to address it in November when we don't have to trade the farm just to get a guy who can get 3 outs every other day.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Your contention was "much" better. .015 doesn't correlate for me but if it does for you then you win. You probably don't want to address that Smyly has a lower overall OPS against than JV I imagine.

Smyly is in the rotation because he is one of the top 5 starters in the Tiger organization. The fact he is lefty is a bonus. DD nor I ever said he was there because he's a lefty. We like the diversity and see benefit. You don't and that is noted.

Noted?

All I'm saying is that Smyly pitches against RHB 3 times as much as LHB and can't get them out..so being a lefty is not a bonus..he is a top 5 but I'd gladly take a RHP that's better..that seems simple enough but you seem to think it's worth having LHB not playing because of Smyly yet the replacements are hitting at a high level.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

How the hell can anyone justify a reliever being a trade headliner? You'd be trading good prospects for a guy who pitches maybe 60-70 innings a year? That's just wrong. If you get a guy who can pitch for 200 innings as well, then you have a deal. If not a 200 inning starting pitcher, then you better get a better than average hitter that fills a hole. DD needs to stop being nonchalant. It's a lot easier to build a bullpen in the offseason, and needs to address it in November when we don't have to trade the farm just to get a guy who can get 3 outs every other day.

It is rare that I disagree with everything somebody posts. That's why I enjoy messageboards. We have little chance of agreeing but I'll summarize why I think completely differently than you.

Getting a 60-70 IP guy that you trust in the 7th inning of the ALCS isn't nearly as easy as you are making it sound. I'm guessing you've watched the playoffs the last few years. Every year teams make trades for impact relievers. My anger is that DD hasn't gotten a big enough reliever going in to the playoffs.

I don't understand why you would complicate a trade now trying to get a 200 IP starter. They are easier to get in the offseason (James Shields?). They don't need that guy today so you would be giving up prospects needlessly more than getting a top-end reliever from a team that knows a closer won't get them to the playoffs. Great starters often don't make it out of the seventh in the playoffs. I want four closer caliber guys to take over from there. The games are lost in the 8th just like the 3rd.

It's like not having a good kicker "We can get one anywhere..." until you find out the guys hwho are clutch are rare. You lose games and opportunities while you learn that lesson. Tigers need one more marquee reliever to make me happy for the postseason.

10 man pitching staff.
The 5 starters with Porcello and Smyly likely in the pen.
Al Al
Coke
Joba
Nathan
?????

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Noted?

All I'm saying is that Smyly pitches against RHB 3 times as much as LHB and can't get them out..so being a lefty is not a bonus..he is a top 5 but I'd gladly take a RHP that's better..that seems simple enough but you seem to think it's worth having LHB not playing because of Smyly yet the replacements are hitting at a high level.

Verlander isn't doing much better against RHers.

This is the teams FIFTH starter we're talking about. Show me the starting right hander they should go get to fill the spot. It is crazy that Drew has the 16th most TBF in the AL though he is 51st in IP. I'm not going to say Drew has been good against RHers. He needs to get better against them to stay in the rotation next season.

I do think there is value in having a lefty in the rotation. I'd rather have Fister though as would you. I want the best guys regardless of handedness. I will turn over rocks and try to get the lefty starter worthy of a rotation is my point. I will do it specifically because he is left and it messes with opposing managers if the pitcher is good.

Salvador Perez didn't hit cleanup against Detroit when Smyly pitched because he hits .197 against LH's. That can mean something at times.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Salvador Perez didn't hit cleanup against Detroit when Smyly pitched because he hits .197 against LH's. That can mean something at times.

Not if the RHB taking his place is hitting at .900+ OPS. All I'm saying is I wouldn't say we need a lefty in our rotation. Maybe you don't either but some do..

 

[Thumb]

10 man pitching staff.
The 5 starters with Porcello and Smyly likely in the pen.
Al Al
Coke
Joba
Nathan
?????

Don't we still have Hanrahan coming up?