Trumpgret

[Spartanmack]

It could happen. The whole "we need to appeal to a broader segment of the population" has been a part of the discussion for a long time.


I need to find an update to this chart:
https://xkcd.com/1127/large/

So long as things like law and order, enforcing immigration law and other common sense ideas are labeled racist, regressive, far right policies there will be no return to the middle at least not what most reasonable people would consider the middle

 

[byco42]

So long as things like law and order, enforcing immigration law and other common sense ideas are labeled racist, regressive, far right policies there will be no return to the middle at least not what most reasonable people would consider the middle

The initial purpose of this republic was self-government. It did not succeed, because it was handicapped from the onset. And the founders most certainly knew this, but also knew such a government would never see the light of day otherwise, so, why not?

And, the onus of slavery was the burr in the belly that had to work itself out, but it has actually nestled in far deeper than anyone could have projected.

 

[Gulo Blue]

So long as things like law and order, enforcing immigration law and other common sense ideas are labeled racist, regressive, far right policies there will be no return to the middle at least not what most reasonable people would consider the middle

Depends on the policy. Labeling the temporary zero-tolerance family separation policy 'far right' isn't the problem.

 

[Spartanmack]

Depends on the policy. Labeling the temporary zero-tolerance family separation policy 'far right' isn't the problem.

no it doesn't. Family separation wasn't labeled far right until Trump did it. When Obama did it, and put kids in cages it was to protect children. This is actually a good illustration of my point - it doesn't even matter that the action was taken by the left in a previous administration, it's happening under Trump so it has to be "far right."

The idea that family separation is some sort of far right extreme evil is absurd. Citizen parents get separated from their children when they commit crimes literally EVERY day. We don't send kids to jail with their lawbreaking parents and we shouldn't just set entire families of illegal aliens loose and hope they show up for a court date. If you want to criticize the way children were detained, that's fine but that's not a "far right" or even "right of center" policy.

 

[Gulo Blue]

no it doesn't. Family separation wasn't labeled far right until Trump did it. When Obama did it, and put kids in cages it was to protect children. This is actually a good illustration of my point - it doesn't even matter that the action was taken by the left in a previous administration, it's happening under Trump so it has to be "far right."

The idea that family separation is some sort of extreme evil is absurd. Citizen parents get separated from their children when they commit crimes literally EVERY day. We don't send kids to jail with their lawbreaking parents and we shouldn't just set entire families loose and hope they show up for a court date. If you want to criticize the way children were detained, that's fine but that's not a "far right" or even "right of center" policy.

This post is entirely wrong.


Separating children from the people they are with is sometimes a necessity. At the border, it's part of a bad situation that arises from our policies that can make it advantageous to cross the border with a child.


Separating children from families for other, non-essential reasons, like political reasons or to send a message to dissuade immigrants is not the same thing. It is an extreme evil and equating the two, at best, means you haven't thought through the situation enough to come to that realization.


That's as generous as I can be with that garbage post.

 

[tinselwolverine]

George Will to vote for Biden.

I don’t really get it.

I can see voting third or not voting for president, but I don’t see a lifelong Republican - he coached Reagan in presidential debate prep - I don’t get voting for Biden.

Oh well.

 

[Gulo Blue]

George Will to vote for Biden.

I don?t really get it.

I can see voting third or not voting for president, but I don?t see a lifelong Republican - he coached Reagan in presidential debate prep - I don?t get voting for Biden.

Oh well.

Depends on the perceived threat to the institution you love. If there was an election for Czar and Vice-Czar of the Big Ten and the Michigan candidates were Dave Brandon and James Duderstadt, I'd vote for the Buckeye candidates if it looked like a close election. Better that than 'our team' which would move The Game to the middle of the season or who knows, stop playing sports altogether.

 

[Spartanmack]

This post is entirely wrong.


Separating children from the people they are with is sometimes a necessity. At the border, it's part of a bad situation that arises from our policies that can make it advantageous to cross the border with a child.


Separating children from families for other, non-essential reasons, like political reasons or to send a message to dissuade immigrants is not the same thing. It is an extreme evil and equating the two, at best, means you haven't thought through the situation enough to come to that realization.


That's as generous as I can be with that garbage post.

Spare me your generosity. This is complete and utter nonsense. If it's sometimes necessary then it can't be entirely wrong and that advantage existed long before Trump ever came into office.

But my post isn't even a little bit wrong. Children aren't being separated for non-essential reasons, they're not being separated for political reasons or just to send a message. They're being separated because children don't belong in jail with adults who knowingly break the law (i.e. their parents). And sending a message while not necessarily the primary purpose, is a function of all punishments from fines to asset seizures to prison terms for all crimes. Unfortunately, we can't just drop them back on the other side of the border and we shouldn't be sending the wrong message, like if you come here with a kid, we're going to release you into society and hope you show up one day for court.

I'm also not wrong about the hypocrisy - these same actions under Obama were defended as being humanitarian, but suddenly they're evil because Trump's intentions aren't pure like Obama's were. It's a absolute joke, like your post that wasn't very well thought through.

 

[Gulo Blue]

If it's sometimes necessary then it can't be entirely wrong and that advantage existed long before Trump ever came into office. You can't be more wrong than you are with this post. It's complete and utter nonsense.

But my post isn't even a little bit wrong. Children aren't being separated for non-essential reasons, they're not being separated for political reasons or just to send a message. They're being separated because children don't belong in jail with adults who knowingly break the law (i.e. their parents). And sending a message while not necessarily the primary purpose, is a function of all punishments from fines to asset seizures to prison terms for all crimes. Unfortunately, we can't just drop them back on the other side of the border and we shouldn't be sending the wrong message, like if you come here with a kid, we're going to release you into society and hope you show up one day for court.

You know they stopped the zero-tolerance separation right? If it was essential, how did they manage to stop?


And comparing the separation of children from parents to criminal punishments is awful too.

 

[Spartanmack]

You know they stopped the zero-tolerance separation right? If it was essential, how did they manage to stop?


And comparing the separation of children from parents to criminal punishments is awful too.

I do and I don't recall ever saying it was essential.

I also didn't compare separating children from parents to criminal punishment. I said it's a common part of criminal punishment. If you don't believe me, take your kids or someone else's kids with you and go rob a bank - see if they throw those kids in the slammer with you. Tell the cops you just did it to give your kids a better life. You know that crossing the border illegally is a criminal offense right?

 

[Gulo Blue]

I do and I don't recall ever saying it was essential.

I also didn't compare separating children from parents to criminal punishment. I said it's a common part of criminal punishment. If you don't believe me, take your kids with you and go rob a bank - see if they throw your kids in the slammer with you. You know that crossing the border illegally is a criminal offense right?

"Children aren't being separated for non-essential reasons"
If it's not not-essential then it's...


And then you follow up with "And sending a message while not necessarily the primary purpose, is a function of all punishments from fines to asset seizures to prison terms for all crimes."

 

[byco42]

George Will to vote for Biden.

I don’t really get it.

I can see voting third or not voting for president, but I don’t see a lifelong Republican - he coached Reagan in presidential debate prep - I don’t get voting for Biden.

Oh well.

George Will has never been more accurately depicted.

Even the guy in the Michigan hat is confused.

 

[Michchamp]

George Will to vote for Biden.

I don?t really get it.

I can see voting third or not voting for president, but I don?t see a lifelong Republican - he coached Reagan in presidential debate prep - I don?t get voting for Biden.

Oh well.

I find it really quaint that some of you guys still believe electoral politics matter, we live in a democracy (or for the pedants: a federal republic), and there's any meaningful political difference between the candidates that our intelligence agencies, corporate lobbyists, and military vet behind the scenes and stand up in elections.

 

[Spartanmack]

"Children aren't being separated for non-essential reasons"
If it's not not-essential then it's...


And then you follow up with "And sending a message while not necessarily the primary purpose, is a function of all punishments from fines to asset seizures to prison terms for all crimes."

that was your term, when you tried to make the case that they were being separated for political reasons or to send a message. I said that was nonsense and it is. It is essential that we enforce border security, when that involves children, like with any other crime they get separated from their parents.

I stand by the second quote as well and fail to see how that makes separation the "essential" action, and not circumstance of that essential action.

 

[tinselwolverine]

George Will has never been more accurately depicted.

Even the guy in the Michigan hat is confused.

And the guy is Arthur Miller, to boot.

He had a connection to baseball, I think.

 

[Gulo Blue]

that was your term, when you tried to make the case that they were being separated for political reasons or to send a message. I said that was nonsense and it is. It is essential that we enforce border security, when that involves children, like with any other crime they get separated from their parents.

I stand by the second quote as well and fail to see how that makes separation the "essential" action, and not circumstance of that essential action.

But they reversed the policy. Dance around it all you like.

 

[byco42]

I find it really quaint that some of you guys still believe electoral politics matter, we live in a democracy (or for the pedants: a federal republic), and there's any meaningful political difference between the candidates that our intelligence agencies, corporate lobbyists, and military vet behind the scenes and stand up in elections.

There is a mountain of evidence to illustrate to me that the people we vote for simply carry out the orders of the people to which they are accountable, and it's been this way for nearly 150 years.

 

[Michchamp]

There is a mountain of evidence to illustrate to me that the people we vote for simply carry out the orders of the people to which they are accountable, and it's been this way for nearly 150 years.

Eh, well... not from 1861-1865.



And not from 1933 to 1945.



And not really from 1961-1963... but look what happened to him because of that.

 

[byco42]

Eh, well... not from 1861-1865.

That was more than 150 years ago. But, I agree.

And not from 1933 to 1945.

Actually, it was never more obvious during this time frame, partially because the guy was elected to four terms.

And not really from 1961-1963... but look what happened to him because of that.

That kinda further amplifies and makes my point, ya think?

 

[Michchamp]

That was more than 150 years ago. But, I agree.

dang, you're right. I'm getting old.

Actually, it was never more obvious during this time frame, partially because the guy was elected to four terms.

There was substantial resistence to FDR from Wall Street and business leaders, and the military. but he did work with business more than against it; and eventually military leadership got a big war to keep them busy.

That kinda further amplifies and makes my point, ya think?

yes, you're right.