Ukraine Riots

[Gulo Blue]

I see reports of a truce and potentially talks.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Another worthwhile point I've read is that Russia's interest isn't just about oil and pipelines (though those are huge enough reasons). Ukraine was home to a lot of USSR manufacturing and they still make ICBMs, aircraft, industrial equipment, and rockets for Russia.

 

[spockmaster]

side note: I've been trying to learn to speak Russian for a while. It was either Russian or Ukrainian and since her family all speaks Russian anyway, and it's the more useful of the two languages (neither are really useful though) I settled on that one. I haven't exactly been giving it a great effort, but it is a fucking hard language to learn. I have the alphabet down and can read it, but the words are so long and hard to pronounce. they conjugate nouns as well as verbs, and they never had their own version of a Dr. Johnson producing a standard Russian dictionary, so spelling is a mess. if you translate Russian directly to English, it sounds really stupid as well, since they don't use articles... no "a, an, or the" to specify nouns. makes me long for the days of Spanish or French class. I remember hating having to take a second language, but both of those were simple by comparison to Russian

Russian language was my minor in college (because my history major focused on soviet history), though I've let it slip since then. but yeah, its diabolical to learn, though probably not as hard as english is to learn for non-english speakers. english is all sorts of fucked up.

ive been meaning to pick it up again at some point, but i havent gotten around to it yet. german is also on my list of languages to learn.

 

[Michchamp]

I see reports of a truce and potentially talks.

the opposition should not trust the current regime. as much as I hate to advocate violence, it seems like that (or at least the credible threat of that) is the only thing that's going to start that corrupt mess of a government on the road to reform.

Another worthwhile point I've read is that Russia's interest isn't just about oil and pipelines (though those are huge enough reasons). Ukraine was home to a lot of USSR manufacturing and they still make ICBMs, aircraft, industrial equipment, and rockets for Russia.

the natural gas deal is a huge scam. at one point Ukraine was paying 5 times what Germany was for Russian gas. and it's "subsidized" for the citizens so they don't have equivalently high gas bills... yet they pay for that expense in their tax dollars. and it looks like Yanukovich's family and close political allies are the ones pocketing the difference. one reason the gov't there is practically insolvent.

Russia is basically the worst neighbor to have. as much as people hate the U.S. (and often rightfully so) they still prefer us over them, and it's really not even a choice.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Didn't we strike a deal where Ukraine would share radar data with us to keep us from putting missile defense shield equipment in Poland? I bet that fell through after the papers quit paying attention.

 

[Michchamp]

I see reports of a truce and potentially talks.

wife said that's not happening. the gov't only mentioned a truce to provide extra time to get all their thugs in place.

 

[Gulo Blue]

wife said that's not happening. the gov't only mentioned a truce to provide extra time to get all their thugs in place.

My 1st thought was that they were stalling to get tanks in position. My 2nd was that they'd arrest the opposition leader that showed up to talk. Then I thought that was too cynical, but the tanks are probably on the move.

 

[Michchamp]

My 1st thought was that they were stalling to get tanks in position. My 2nd was that they'd arrest the opposition leader that showed up to talk. Then I thought that was too cynical, but the tanks are probably on the move.

I'm not sure who the main opposition leader is.

I know Klitschko (the boxer) is heading a party and was going to run against Yanukovich in the next election. My wife thought this was a good thing, but since Klitschko seemed like a pretty slick character, I suspected he was more "token" of opposition than a real threat. BUT in the past year, they passed a bill stating that if you paid taxes in another country, you couldn't run for president which appeared to be targeted at Klitschko himself (he pays taxes in Germany... it's weird, but we're talking about Ukraine) so maybe he is legit. He could not possibly be worse.

the problem is... Yanukovich seems to be ruling at the behest of some of the oligarchs from his hometown (who happen to be the wealthiest people in Ukraine), especially this guy, and so simply forcing him out of office may not really change things. then again... bringing in a guy who is not quite so corrupt and stupid could be meaningful change of its own.

 

[Gulo Blue]

BBC saying protests are spreading east.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25905031

 

[Thumb]

Saw this the other day and had to LOL

 

[Gulo Blue]

A couple bullets:

-the President is revoking the anti-protest laws that triggered the dramatic escalation (too late now. But telling everybody they're going to jail for 15 years was mostly just a good way to get them to commit to do whatever it takes to get a regime change.)

-The Prime Minister (not the President) has resigned. That was the position offered to the opposition leader and turned down.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It looks like things are getting violent again. 4 dead.

http://world.time.com/2014/02/18/ukraine-revolution-erupts-in-fresh-violence/

 

[Michchamp]

It looks like things are getting violent again. 4 dead.

http://world.time.com/2014/02/18/ukraine-revolution-erupts-in-fresh-violence/

actually I think they updated the article after you posted it to say 9 dead, including some police. When police are dying, you know it's moved beyond riots into actual street battles...

I read an article from some guy in Ukraine that said things are going to REALLY explode after the Olympics.

Russia's attention is focused on smiling and looking friendly for the media in Sochi, but once that is over, Russia may overtly intervene in Ukrainian politics, sending in special forces or something.

it's one of those absurd spectacles of humanity that 500 miles from NBC's peachy-keen Olympic coverage, people are fighting and dying on barricades in their nation's capital, but you wouldn't know that from watching NBC. I think that shows the U.S. government has basically washed their hands of what happens there. Not that it matters on the ground, as Ukrainian government officials are publicly insisting that the riots are being instigated and funded by the U.S.

 

[Thumb]

it's one of those absurd spectacles of humanity that 500 miles from NBC's peachy-keen Olympic coverage, people are fighting and dying on barricades in their nation's capital, but you wouldn't know that from watching NBC. I think that shows the U.S. government has basically washed their hands of what happens there.

That's pretty far out there. NBC does not show all the unrest in a country that's not hosting the Olympics, during a sports program (Olympics) and that proves the US government has washed their hands of what happens there? Since when does the US government = NBC sports or vice versa?

 

[Gulo Blue]

Since when does the US government = NBC sports or vice versa?

There's no one date, and it isn't a black/white issue, but the degree on military collaboration with the media in 1991 was a step in that direction. Every now and then you get a story that shows the difference. Like a month into the Snowden thing; Republican/Democrat didn't really matter. If you got your news from the internet, Snowden was a whistle blower, if you got your news from broadcast TV, he's a traitor.

 

[Thumb]

Since when does the US government = NBC sports or vice versa?

There's no one date, and it isn't a black/white issue, but the degree on military collaboration with the media in 1991 was a step in that direction. Every now and then you get a story that shows the difference. Like a month into the Snowden thing; Republican/Democrat didn't really matter. If you got your news from the internet, Snowden was a whistle blower, if you got your news from broadcast TV, he's a traitor.

Yes but I assume he means specifically the NBC Olympics coverage, which is a sports program. If you want that kind of news you watch CNN or FOX or something, not ESPN, and certainly not NBC Sports.

 

[Michchamp]

That's pretty far out there. NBC does not show all the unrest in a country that's not hosting the Olympics, during a sports program (Olympics) and that proves the US government has washed their hands of what happens there? Since when does the US government = NBC sports or vice versa?

Ok... it is a bit of a stretch. but there is a well-known collaboration between the major media outlets and the U.S. government. they would've ignored the lack of working toilets, clean drinking water, and gay rights if these Olympics were being hosted by a U.S. ally. the sports reporters there have criticized quite a bit about Putin... yet they didn't touch what's currently going on in Ukraine.

There's no one date, and it isn't a black/white issue, but the degree on military collaboration with the media in 1991 was a step in that direction. Every now and then you get a story that shows the difference. Like a month into the Snowden thing; Republican/Democrat didn't really matter. If you got your news from the internet, Snowden was a whistle blower, if you got your news from broadcast TV, he's a traitor.

it goes back even further than that. the media was carefully managed during WWII, and before. It's truly amazing how much freedom the press corps had in Vietnam. They learned not to make THAT mistake ever again...

 

[spockmaster]

Ok... it is a bit of a stretch. but there is a well-known collaboration between the major media outlets and the U.S. government. they would've ignored the lack of working toilets, clean drinking water, and gay rights if these Olympics were being hosted by a U.S. ally. the sports reporters there have criticized quite a bit about Putin... yet they didn't touch what's currently going on in Ukraine.


it goes back even further than that. the media was carefully managed during WWII, and before. It's truly amazing how much freedom the press corps had in Vietnam. They learned not to make THAT mistake ever again...

Oh yeah, way before. WWI definitely, on all sides. Thats actually the reason the 1918 Flu pandemic is called the Spanish Flu - because Spain was neutral and wasn't censoring the press, the death tolls and spread of the flu wasnt censored like it was in the presses of all the countries involved in WWI, so it got that nickname. Controlling/censoring the press to keep morale up and control public opinion has been a useful tool for governments for ages, including ours.

 

[Michchamp]

The IOC rejects Ukrainian Olympian's request to honor dead in riots.

Sports > human lives.

People sometimes don't understand that a claim you are "keeping politics out of it" is a political statement itself.

 

[Gulo Blue]

The IOC rejects Ukrainian Olympian's request to honor dead in riots.

Sports > human lives.

People sometimes don't understand that a claim you are "keeping politics out of it" is a political statement itself.

That's the Olympics. Have they ever done it any other way?

Someone on the Dianne Rehm Show just stated that Yanukovych and his family have transferred $12-13B in Ukrainian assets to their own personal holdings.

One of the pro-Yanukovych voices said that people on the pro-Russia side don't want to get closer to the EU because they would always be 2nd or 3rd class passengers on the EU train. And to support that argument, he said "Just look at how the Americans treat their allies."