Ukraine Riots

[Gulo Blue]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...bout-ukraine-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask/

Good link. Thanks.

 

[Michchamp]

Good link. Thanks.

It will help the posters here who have been reading the thread and still wondering "What is Ukraine? I'm too embarrassed to ask."

 

[Gulo Blue]

It will help the posters here who have been reading the thread and still wondering "What is Ukraine? I'm too embarrassed to ask."

I was thinking of sending it to my parents. I mentioned before, sometimes I like to compare notes on what's in the news because they get theirs from newspapers and ABC/CBS/NBC.

 

[Michchamp]

I was thinking of sending it to my parents. I mentioned before, sometimes I like to compare notes on what's in the news because they get theirs from newspapers and ABC/CBS/NBC.

My mom will probably call me Saturday and say "Have you guys heard about what's going on in Ukraine?"

I don't know if Glenn Beck or whatever retarded right-wing conspiracy theory sites my dad reads has covered it yet, so he's probably in the dark.

I'm sure they'll find some way to blame Obama for it soon enough though:

 

[Spartan23MSU]

My mom will probably call me Saturday and say "Have you guys heard about what's going on in Ukraine?"

I don't know if Glenn Beck or whatever retarded right-wing conspiracy theory sites my dad reads has covered it yet, so he's probably in the dark.

I'm sure they'll find some way to blame Obama for it soon enough though:

Why are people more concerned about Beck and Palin than China??? Well, I give you some credit for dating a UKR girl and travelling there, dated a girl from Odessa for 3 years I met at MSU. You made the bonus round Champ, good man.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

She was one of the ones that would tolerate being called Russian but she didnt like it, hahaha

 

[Michchamp]

She was one of the ones that would tolerate being called Russian but she didnt like it, hahaha

was she actually ethnic Russian? Odessa has a lot of Russians.

 

[Gulo Blue]

They've reached an agreement. Constitutional changes reducing the presidents power and returning to the 2004 constitution and elections before the end of the year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26289318?r=1

 

[Michchamp]

They've reached an agreement. Constitutional changes reducing the presidents power and returning to the 2004 constitution and elections before the end of the year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26289318?r=1

That may please some people, but I think a lot of them want yanukovich gone. Not sure if this will placate every protestor out there... especially the far-right Ukrainian nationalist ones.

they fly that black & red flag, which was the flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army that fought with the Nazis briefly against the USSR, before the Nazis made clear they intended to ethnically cleanse Ukrainians as well as Russians. Then they fought pretty much everybody, and to this day serve to complicate WWII victory celebrations in the country. It's like the equivalent of flying the Stars and Bars in America, and you can see it in a lot of pictures of the protest.

the ethnic situation complicates the politics here, since while both the Right and the Left hate Russians, the Right there is not really concerned with progressive politics, and really just wants to fight Russians. The left is not as into a fight, and only really dislikes the Russians insofar as closer ties to Russia represent a turn away from a true liberal democracy along the EU model, and a turn toward democracy in the Russian sense, with 99% election results and presidents-for-life. They seem to have put aside their differences out of mutual hatred for Yanukovich, but if it came to an actual civil war & regime change, I don't know if they have a leader who could keep them together & form a stable government to replace this one.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

Odessa is also heavily Greek (her father was). Folks from UKR most often dont like being classified as "Russians", my experience anyhow, maybe youve seen a different side.

 

[spockmaster]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26304842

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/22/oust-yanukovich-parliament_n_4837884.html


Looks like things are starting to accelerate. Ukranian parliament outs Yanukovich, but hes refusing to step down, calling it a coup.

 

[Gulo Blue]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26304842

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/22/oust-yanukovich-parliament_n_4837884.html


Looks like things are starting to accelerate. Ukranian parliament outs Yanukovich, but hes refusing to step down, calling it a coup.

...and Yulia Tymoshenko was released.

Here are pictures of Yaunukovich's house.
http://zyalt.livejournal.com/1007568.html

 

[zyxt9]

it seems this was a relatively quick and minimally violent overthrow. sad that even one had to die in the process, but at least it wasn't an all out war like in syria.

 

[Gulo Blue]

it seems this was a relatively quick and minimally violent overthrow. sad that even one had to die in the process, but at least it wasn't an all out war like in syria.

It's too early to talk like it's over.

 

[Michchamp]

it seems this was a relatively quick and minimally violent overthrow. sad that even one had to die in the process, but at least it wasn't an all out war like in syria.

it's not over yet.

I've seen a lot of comments from pro-Russian Ukrainian politicians in the east & Crimea (as mentioned, Crimea is mostly Russian) that sound like they're laying a case for Russian intervention, mentioning "nuclear power plants in the hands of extremists" and other comments that read like talking points for an invasion.

where they go from here, I'm not sure. It was a good sign at least that Germany, Sweden, & Poland brokered the deal to get Yanukovich out of office. That makes me think the Europeans are growing a pair over this.

the Ukrainian military is a joke now... but even then a Russian invasion wouldn't be a walkover like it was in Georgia a couple years ago. While most countries around the world could care less what's going on in Kiev, they're not going to stay quiet if Russian tanks start rolling on the city. and if the US/EU started supplying Ukraine with weapons, Russia would have a problem on its hands. That's why I think the Russians are now talking about calls for annexing only the extreme east of Ukraine and the Crimea. They've lowered their sites from controlling all the country to just getting back a few parts of it.

 

[Michchamp]

It's too early to talk like it's over.

ha. yeah.

The wife got into some pretty heated arguments with dumb Russian-Americans on facebook over the weekend. they were calling the Ukrainian posters fascists, blaming them for the violence, and laying allegations of anti-semitism on Ukraine.

If you think ohio fans on the interwebs are bad, you haven't met Russians arguing ethnic superiority... As a veteran of many heated internet arguments, I wanted to laugh, but I also don't want some moron threatening my wife (it was starting to come to that, as she dropped that she was a lawyer and they started insulting her, googling her name, etc.) I said "STOP arguing on facebook."

one of these morons had previously stalked her friend on FB, sending her lots of perverse messages and commenting on all her photos, calling her names when she rejected his advances... when my wife called him on it, he denied it and started ranting about hiring lawyers and suing her for defaming him, violating his "first amendment rights" etc.

But there's no point in engaging on FB where you're not anonymous, and you're only throwing red meat to fools. I told her about the saying "Never argue with an idiot; he will drag you down to his level, and then beat you with experience" and she agreed, and deleted all her posts, and then blocked all of them. (of course they declared victory then...)

 

[Gulo Blue]

ha. yeah.

The wife got into some pretty heated arguments with dumb Russian-Americans on facebook over the weekend. they were calling the Ukrainian posters fascists, blaming them for the violence, and laying allegations of anti-semitism on Ukraine.

If you think ohio fans on the interwebs are bad, you haven't met Russians arguing ethnic superiority... As a veteran of many heated internet arguments, I wanted to laugh, but I also don't want some moron threatening my wife (it was starting to come to that, as she dropped that she was a lawyer and they started insulting her, googling her name, etc.) I said "STOP arguing on facebook."

one of these morons had previously stalked her friend on FB, sending her lots of perverse messages and commenting on all her photos, calling her names when she rejected his advances... when my wife called him on it, he denied it and started ranting about hiring lawyers and suing her for defaming him, violating his "first amendment rights" etc.

But there's no point in engaging on FB where you're not anonymous, and you're only throwing red meat to fools. I told her about the saying "Never argue with an idiot; he will drag you down to his level, and then beat you with experience" and she agreed, and deleted all her posts, and then blocked all of them. (of course they declared victory then...)

Facebook is fun when you've see comments of friends and friends of friends you don't know from former Soviet states. There's that combination of context I'm unaware of and people that take the wrong thing really seriously. I usually keep my mouth shut even when I think my opinions are harmless.

Here's my go to internet argument comic:

 

[Michchamp]

Facebook is fun when you've see comments of friends and friends of friends you don't know from former Soviet states. There's that combination of context I'm unaware of and people that take the wrong thing really seriously. I usually keep my mouth shut even when I think my opinions are harmless.

...

yeah. the best eavesdroppings on conversations were during the Zimmerman trial. was astounding how many people put outright racist crap out there to defend that pudgy turd. or struggle try to find a non-racist angle to defend Zimmerman, and end up failing miserably... Oops you're racist. Better delete this convo and hope no record is found if you ever run for office.

the Ukraine/Russia ones are every bit as heated, but as a lot of them are written in Russian/Ukrainian, and facebook's translation tool SUCKS, it lacks the same entertainment value

when facebook was new, I posted more political stuff... but then a couple times I got personal messages from morons I went to high school with or friends-of-friends I didn't even know, demanding I read some BS column from Breitbart or this or that, or insulting me, etc. I wanted to respond in kind, but I saw it getting too personal. there's no sense making enemies when you're not going to change any opinions anyway. and while I'm not friends on there with people I don't know personally, how am I supposed to know that some friend-of-a-friend is not loony enough to send hate mail to my house or show up at my door in a mohawk carrying a sawed-off?

so I've resigned myself to sarcastic one-off posts... e.g. "thanks for sharing your views." or "That's not a controversial opinion; I'm sure no one will disagree with that, nor can they." then when they post some long angry rant in response, it looks ridiculous when it lingers there, un-responded to.

 

[Gulo Blue]

People in Crimea are calling to secede from Ukraine. There may have already been a vote on it, but I can't tell you much about what this story says or who wrote it and there seem to be doubt in its veracity. I'll consider it to be as likely as a recruiting rumor for now.

http://abcnews.md/ultima-ora-crimee...-vot-aproape-unanim-al-deliberativului-local/

 

[Michchamp]

People in Crimea are calling to secede from Ukraine. There may have already been a vote on it, but I can't tell you much about what this story says or who wrote it and there seem to be doubt in its veracity. I'll consider it to be as likely as a recruiting rumor for now.

http://abcnews.md/ultima-ora-crimee...-vot-aproape-unanim-al-deliberativului-local/

while I think if it comes down to it, Ukraine is better off without Crimea, in practice it's difficult to see how Moscow doesn't use Crimea as a lever to meddle in Ukrainian politics, since they'd have to overfly/drive through Ukraine to get there... unless a substantial part of Eastern Ukraine is ceded to Russia as well.

this was basically the Russian playbook for controlling Georgia... they used ethnic conflict in Abkhazia/Ossetia (both within Georgia's borders) as a pretext to meddle in Georgian politics.

on the other hand... Russia's kinda stupid to make a big deal out of Crimea as it is. they're probably better off letting Ukraine have it. in an actual war, their navy isn't leaving the Black Sea without Turkish permission... so the naval base there isn't as strategic as it may have been at one time.

the Crimea issue is what sparked my wife's FB war. it's funny reading Russians whine about mistreatment... when the entire history of the region is them mistreating everyone else who used to live around there... not to mention, Ukraine hasn't actually mistreated anyone of them yet, and a lot of the violence in Kyiv was perpetrated by ethnic Russians bussed in to be riot police.