Ukraine Riots

[Gulo Blue]

Arrest warrant issued for Yuanukovitch. They're calling Olexandr Turchynov the Interim President. While I know very little of what she's said or done, I was hoping for Yulia Tymoshenko...because it's one of the name I recognize and I like prison-to-leader stories.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26320004

 

[Michchamp]

Arrest warrant issued for Yuanukovitch. They're calling Olexandr Turchynov the Interim President. While I know very little of what she's said or done, I was hoping for Yulia Tymoshenko...because it's one of the name I recognize and I like prison-to-leader stories.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26320004

It's hard to find someone with name recognition who isn't tarnished in some way. The closest was probably Klitschko, but he blew his credibility by trying to play it safe during the rioting. History may have already passed him by.

Tymoshenko was the one who cut the corrupt gas deals with Russia (there are lots of pics of her and Putin on the web) in 2010. for all practical purposes she may be at least as pro-Russian as Yanukovich, through presumably, she wouldn't operate as corrupt of a government as Yanukovich, which was basically operating as a kleptocracy at the end there... so she could be as good as it gets for Ukraine right now.

Being in prison while all this was going on though gives her a bit of street cred that no other candidate has. she was allegedly beaten pretty badly in prison as well (google it.)

I feel like this is kinda the 2010 Michigan coaching search... there's probably some perfect unknown candidate flying under the radar, but the only people with name recognition (and thus part of the discussion) are Les Miles, & Jim Harbaugh.

 

[zyxt9]

I'm hoping for one of the younger leaders who was helping lead the riots and maybe has enough charisma, energy, integrity, and power to lead them away from the Russian influence. Not that I know who that would be...

 

[Gulo Blue]

I wonder what the previous most recent use of a catapult in the removal of a head of state was.

 

[Thumb]

I wonder what the previous most recent use of a catapult in the removal of a head of state was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ8jGqdE2iw

Wasn't 100% successful though.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Wasn't 100% successful though.

You can't really say this catapult played any role either...unless you think the internet attention it got was worth anything. I don't. Outsiders played no role as far as I can tell.

Yuanukovitch is allegedly in Russia.
Russia is running military exercises near the Ukraine border.
The US is talking about offering $1 billion in loans.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Headline: Armed men seize Crimea parliament and hoist Russian flag

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/armed-men-seize-crimea-parliament-reports

 

[Michchamp]

Headline: Armed men seize Crimea parliament and hoist Russian flag

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/armed-men-seize-crimea-parliament-reports

I've read that Moscow was disappointed in the lack of popular support for secession in Crimea. according to the BBC, 54% of Crimea is ethnic Russian, but of course, not all of them support the Russian gov't. And the Ukrainians and Muslim Tartars that live there (another 35% or so) are almost all in favor of remaining Ukrainian. Guess Putin decided they need a little provocation to tip the balance.

looks like the Ukrainian government has cordoned the building off. As long as there isn't the popular support for Russia in Crimea, there's probably not too much harm that an occupation of the parliament building there will spark anything bigger. Let the 50-60 tough guys (who appear to be actual Russian troops) hold it til they starve.

 

[Michchamp]

this article explains why the East/West split the media has described between Ukrainian/Russian speakers w/in Ukraine is misleading (link.) It's not at the province level, more like there are a few cities in the East that are Russian, but the surrounding countryside is mostly Ukrainian.

these events are all a huge step toward the Ukrainian national identity, which really never existed until fairly recently in history. That area has long been a power vacuum that was continuously conquered by nomads from central Asia (Huns, Mongols, Turks, etc.). After the medieval period, Poland/Lithuania, Russia & Turkey all fought over it... with the Russians finally winning. The Ukrainian language technically outlawed until very recently, and it didn't become the official language of the country until a few years after the former Soviet Union broke up.

Some of the later Tsars took the initiative of settling ethnic Russians in the eastern parts, and Stalin continued this. He notoriously caused the famine there in the 30s that left millions of Ukrainians dead, and replaced them with Russians.

crazy stuff.

 

[zyxt9]

the more former ussr members who flip russia and putin the bird the better.

a ukranian client of mine did describe events as thieves overthrowing thieves though. sad but probably accurate. i did counter that same could be said for every u.s. politician who is newly elected.

 

[Michchamp]

the more former ussr members who flip russia and putin the bird the better.

a ukranian client of mine did describe events as thieves overthrowing thieves though. sad but probably accurate. i did counter that same could be said for every u.s. politician who is newly elected.

it's accurate to some extent; nobody is going to make it that far in Ukrainian politics with clean hands (though as you point out, not like U.S. politicians are much better). But Yanukovich & his cronies in the Party of Regions (the political party he belonged to, backed by Russia & Ukrainian oligarchs in the east) were just plain bad for the country. You couldn't do business unless you were on their side, and they're ranks were full.

it went beyond mere graft and was essentially a mafia kleptocracy like Russia. corruption increased from a mere nuisance to outright theft from the people. in some cases, economic activity was simply stopping altogether. and the corruption was pervading every level of society... nothing gets done without the party's approval & the police were moving from being "sort of corrupt" to an outright criminal gang. no authority cared to reign them in.

Ukraine really can't do worse than that.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Did y'all see the pics of the homes the protesters broke into?

I've got the same TV (but a smaller size) as the old Attorney General.

Yay?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UJXSyu2uz20/UwonOmmounI/AAAAAAAAG9s/l_cqtGS2mr8/s1600/DSC_7765.JPG

More pics from that house.

http://4ubuk.blogspot.se/2014/02/blog-post_23.html

FYI, the price I was watching on the next discontinued, but better than most TVs out there went up instead of down this time around. It did go down a little at 1st, but it didn't stay there.

 

[Michchamp]

Did y'all see the pics of the homes the protesters broke into?

I've got the same TV (but a smaller size) as the old Attorney General.

Yay?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UJXSyu2uz20/UwonOmmounI/AAAAAAAAG9s/l_cqtGS2mr8/s1600/DSC_7765.JPG

More pics from that house.

http://4ubuk.blogspot.se/2014/02/blog-post_23.html

 

[Michchamp]

if I remember my wife's stories correctly, she knew that guy's (the Ukrainian AG) son. was a total POS. it may have just been another prosecutor's son, not the national AG.

also, the Ukrainian equivalent of a state/county government is the Oblast. she told me a story about how some jerkwad 23 year old kid of one of Yanukovich's cronies was appointed chief prosecutor of one of the eastern oblasts. His facebook page was public, and it caused a minor to-do in their national media last year because he was basically the equivalent of a sophomore frat boy at ASU... lots of clubbing pictures, bikini girls around the pool, passed out drunks, etc.

the official response was that his page had been "hacked" and was taken offline...

I guess this story also shows how bad things were getting under Yanukovich. A few years ago, at least there was some semblence of order in the government. Yeah, you might've been corrupt, but at least you worked your way up the ladder, and were probably somewhat competent at doing your job. Under Yanukovich, all restraint on cronyism & nepotism was gone. a 23-year-old here in the US hasn't even graduated law school yet, let alone passed the bar, and legal education there is ever more of a joke. But they have no problem putting that guy in charge of the law enforcement of an area covering hundreds of thousands, if not a million or so people.

 

[Michchamp]

Russia appears to have crossed the line of "armed incursion into another sovereign's territory."

there's no doubt that guys flying military helicopters and driving in camouflage-paint scheme heavy trucks are SOMEONE's active duty military... and that someone could only be Russia. unless that's one hell of a well-organized popular protest movement...

you can just sense the EU and US scrambling to figure out what to do if they start shooting over there. I think a few things have become self-evident now:
- the West had conceded that Ukraine would become part of Putin's new customs union
- nobody thought the protestors would win
- no western government gave a crap about the Ukrainian people, their situation, or their rights

I read that Switzerland and Austria finally froze assets and are investigating bank accounts of Yanukovich and some others. They shouldn't stop there, but it's nice of them to decide now that these things deserved closer scrutiny.

 

[tinselwolverine]

With the centuries long lack of history between Ukraine and Russia, I wouldn't have thought that Putin knew that Ukraine was even on the map.

 

[Michchamp]

well... looks like most of eastern Ukraine (including where my in-laws live) is under Russian control. if not militarily, then the local politicians have declared for-Yanukovich & the Russian customs union.

Fuck.

 

[spockmaster]

I dont like where this is heading. Frankly, if the choice ends up being a war with Russia over Ukraine or letting Crimea and possibly eastern Ukraine secede? Split the country. I dont want war with Russia.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I dont like where this is heading. Frankly, if the choice ends up being a war with Russia over Ukraine or letting Crimea and possibly eastern Ukraine secede? Split the country. I dont want war with Russia.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Ukraine has been a geo-political football in the region amongst all of Russia, Poland and Austria-Hungary for centuries and centuries.

 

[spockmaster]

There is nothing new under the sun.

Ukraine has been a geo-political football in the region amongst all of Russia, Poland and Austria-Hungary for centuries and centuries.

Yep.