Valedictorian at a High School Graduation Reads the Our Father - Who Gives a Shit?

[Michchamp]

I was drawing comparisons to posting on this board, a location which would fit perfectly with my comment. Even though I don't HAVE to read what you post, you really do if you want to make sure you read all the others that may interest you.

So you're equating a speaker reading a prayer to a more-or-less captive audience at an official public high-school graduation ceremony, with a guy expressing his opinions on a message board where participation is entirely voluntary?

Okay. You're right. I was being unreasonable.

I didn't realize I was a such a big meany, forcing my views on everyone here. I'll be more polite and respectful.

I don't want to be a big elitist intellectual bully like those jerks H.L. Mencken or Clarence Darrow, ridiculing poor old William Jennings Bryan, the prosecution and the nice folks in the state of Tennessee (just because they were trying to prosecute, fine and jail a guy for refusing to teach a topic according to their religion.)

 

[Mitchrapp]

right-o. stressing that you are a member of a religious majority and are going to stuff your views into everyone's face whether they like it or not wouldnt go over well with them. so at least they have that over the groups i mentioned

It might be because all the groups you mentioned keep on telling Christians to stuff their views. Yet they have no problem telling us how much God sucks.

 

[TheVictors]

Were talking about a 15 second statement. What would an atheist say....

I ...BET you're going to tell us, aren't you??

 

[Michchamp]

It might be because all the groups you mentioned keep on telling Christians to stuff their views. Yet they have no problem telling us how much God sucks.

no, no, no... you have to exist in order to suck. they're saying he doesn't exist, that's all.

Voltaire said it best: "I suck, therefore I am."

 

[TheVictors]

and I bet you're a lying, welcher.

 

[KAWDUP]

So you're equating a speaker reading a prayer to a more-or-less captive audience at an official public high-school graduation ceremony, with a guy expressing his opinions on a message board where participation is entirely voluntary?

Okay. You're right. I was being unreasonable.

I didn't realize I was a such a big meany, forcing my views on everyone here. I'll be more polite and respectful.

I don't want to be a big elitist intellectual bully like those jerks H.L. Mencken or Clarence Darrow, ridiculing poor old William Jennings Bryan, the prosecution and the nice folks in the state of Tennessee (just because they were trying to prosecute, fine and jail a guy for refusing to teach a topic according to their religion.)

Yep I guess I was comparing the two. Graduation ceremony isn't voluntary? I take it you don't like the comparison then?

You weren't being unreasonable or a big meany. You insist on putting those kinds of words in my mouth, when I wasn't trying to insult you, other than to say well you are a big elitest intellectual bully, so there is no need to not want to be one. :*)

I am saying the transgression of what occurred is barely newsworthy - at least as far as religious bullying is concerned.

I am very much comparing it to the kinds of commencements where they have some raving liberal espousing a political view to the same type of audience.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.

~ Isaiah 9:6

 

[Michchamp]

Yep I guess I was comparing the two. Graduation ceremony isn't voluntary? I take it you don't like the comparison then?

You weren't being unreasonable or a big meany. You insist on putting those kinds of words in mouth, when I wasn't trying to insult you, other than to say well you are a big elitest intellectual bully, so there is no need to not want to be one. :*)

I am saying the transgression of what occurred is barely newsworthy - at least as far as religious bullying is concerned.

I am very much comparing it to the kinds of commencements where they have some raving liberal espousing a political view to the same type of audience.

for the record, I'm not saying that's okay. Not sure how many times that even happens, and where there's a guest speaker, I'm guessing at least some representatives of the school select them, if not vote on them, so it's not really the same thing.

And I think the audience at a graduation ceremony is very much a captive audience. How many parents/grandparents etc. would actually stand up and walk out to avoid hearing the valedictorian's speech? Did they make the prayer known beforehand? once you get in a situation like that, there's a lot of social pressure to conform, and anyone who's offended shouldn't have to, because the speaker could always have a prayer somewhere else for those that were into that sort of thing...

...and that's not too much of a sacrifice considering a prayer at a public school functions falls well over the bright line delineating what's constitutional and what's not. That's another difference between your hypothetical and school prayer a "raving liberal viewpoint" - whatever that is - from telling kids to join the Peace Corps instead of the army, or go work for a charity instead of Goldman Sachs... does not.

If you don't like it, amend the constitution to permit a theocracy. or go live in one. or send your kids to parochial school... it's a free country.

 

[tinselwolverine]

As a moderator, I recieve notifications of complaints on the board, and also who made them.

I think you will all find it amusing that I just recieved a complaint against myself from t idiot that this thread is a violation of the rules.

The complaint reads not sure this guys problem.but I'm sure he violating the boards rules

I don't believe board rules have changed since Monster posted them in this thread.

I think Monster made one exemption; disparaging comments about another poster's wife will not be allowed.

Which is as it should be.

 

[KAWDUP]

Did they make the prayer known beforehand? once you get in a situation like that, there's a lot of social pressure to conform, and anyone who's offended shouldn't have to, because the speaker could always have a prayer somewhere else for those that were into that sort of thing...

...and that's not too much of a sacrifice considering a prayer at a public school functions falls well over the bright line delineating what's constitutional and what's not.

You honestly didn't really need the rest of your post. I am here to tell you, I agree with the above. They should have either made it known beforehand (leaving just enough time to get the ACLU in there to bust their chops), or said the prayer after everyone who really cared had a chance to leave.

So you aren't debating that, mostly likely, the only ones that would leave are the atheists right? I think that was a sizable part of my point. I know it was subtle, and would be lost on the masses, but I figured you would get it.

The Constitution is fine, and if/since I had the money and desire, I would/did send my children to parochial school. You done schooling me yet?

 

[Mitchrapp]

for the record, I'm not saying that's okay. Not sure how many times that even happens, and where there's a guest speaker, I'm guessing at least some representatives of the school select them, if not vote on them, so it's not really the same thing.

And I think the audience at a graduation ceremony is very much a captive audience. How many parents/grandparents etc. would actually stand up and walk out to avoid hearing the valedictorian's speech? Did they make the prayer known beforehand? once you get in a situation like that, there's a lot of social pressure to conform, and anyone who's offended shouldn't have to, because the speaker could always have a prayer somewhere else for those that were into that sort of thing...

...and that's not too much of a sacrifice considering a prayer at a public school functions falls well over the bright line delineating what's constitutional and what's not. That's another difference between your hypothetical and school prayer a "raving liberal viewpoint" - whatever that is - from telling kids to join the Peace Corps instead of the army, or go work for a charity instead of Goldman Sachs... does not.

If you don't like it, amend the constitution to permit a theocracy. or go live in one. or send your kids to parochial school... it's a free country.

The way I look at it, if the "non-believers" can spout stuff about well, non believing then why can't Christians say a prayer ? As you say, its a free country and those people can go attend a school that doesn't have views that different greatly from person to person.

 

[Michchamp]

You honestly didn't really need the rest of your post. I am here to tell you, I agree with the above. They should have either made it known beforehand (leaving just enough time to get the ACLU in there to bust their chops), or said the prayer after everyone who really cared had a chance to leave.

So you aren't debating that, mostly likely, the only ones that would leave are the atheists right? I think that was a sizable part of my point. I know it was subtle, and would be lost on the masses, but I figured you would get it.

The Constitution is fine, and if/since I had the money and desire, I would/did send my children to parochial school. You done schooling me yet?

oh. I would've liked it better if you just said: "I agree with you, champ." in your first post in the thread

or maybe: "I don't like so much that you called people rednecks, or used such strong language there, but I agree that this fellow shouldn't be leading prayers at public school functions."

 

[Michchamp]

this is pretty cool.

it's nice (for once) that a place displaying a christian monument on public property let the atheists put one up too.

Although, the ACLU guy makes a good point: "Howard Simon, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida, said the creation of a second monument dedicated to atheism shows the "silly lengths" that Bradford County must go to justify allowing the Ten Commandments monument."

evidently, there's no Tea Party in Bradford County (?). you'd think they would unequivocally oppose such displays as a waste of taxpayer dollars in the unavoidable litigation that ensues... right?

 

[Thumb]

As a moderator, I recieve notifications of complaints on the board, and also who made them.

I think you will all find it amusing that I just recieved a complaint against myself from t idiot that this thread is a violation of the rules.

The complaint reads not sure this guys problem.but I'm sure he violating the boards rules

I don't believe board rules have changed since Monster posted them in this thread.

I think Monster made one exemption; disparaging comments about another poster's wife will not be allowed.

Which is as it should be.

Looks like he deleted all his posts now.

That will teach us.

 

[KAWDUP]

oh. I would've liked it better if you just said: "I agree with you, champ." in your first post in the thread

or maybe: "I don't like so much that you called people rednecks, or used such strong language there, but I agree that this fellow shouldn't be leading prayers at public school functions."

Hey Champ:

"I don't like so much that you called people rednecks, or used such strong language there, but I agree that this fellow shouldn't be leading prayers at public school functions."

Too late, but then you would have missed out on all the awesome repartee. Be honest - you wouldn't want it any other way. C'mon tell me otherwise.

 

[Michchamp]

Hey Champ:

"I don't like so much that you called people rednecks, or used such strong language there, but I agree that this fellow shouldn't be leading prayers at public school functions."

Too late, but then you would have missed out on all the awesome repartee. Be honest - you wouldn't want it any other way. C'mon tell me otherwise.

i actually like getting along with people

 

[byco42]

From the wiki article on the scopes monkey trial:

Famously vituperative attacks came from journalist H. L. Mencken, whose syndicated columns from Dayton [, Tennessee] for The Baltimore Sun drew vivid caricatures of the "backward" local populace, referring to the people of Rhea County as "Babbits," "morons," "peasants," "hill-billies," "yaps," and "yokels." He chastised the "degraded nonsense which country preachers are ramming and hammering into yokel skulls."
...
H.L. Mencken's trial reports were heavily slanted against the prosecution and the jury, which was "unanimously hot for Genesis." He mocked the town's inhabitants as "yokels" and "morons." He called Bryan a "buffoon" and his speeches "theologic bilge." In contrast, he called the defense "eloquent" and "magnificent." Even today some American creationists, fighting in courts and state legislatures to demand that creationism be taught on an equal footing with evolution in the schools, have claimed that it was Mencken's trial reports in 1925 that turned public opinion against creationism.
​

Babbits? Yaps? HA... HAHAHAHA! >

this Mencken guy has the right idea.

In every unbeliever's heart there is an uneasy feeling that, after all, he may awake after death and find himself immortal. This is his punishment for his unbelief. This is the agnostic's Hell.

H.L. Mencken

 

[tinselwolverine]

In every unbeliever's heart there is an uneasy feeling that, after all, he may awake after death and find himself immortal. This is his punishment for his unbelief. This is the agnostic's Hell.

H.L. Mencken

But what is immortality going to be like? Christians, Jews (the ones who believe in an afterlife, obviously not the ones who don't), Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccum...a whole bunch of other ones - they all have a different picture of immortality.

Something inside one's self living on afterward doesn't really make people who have a "maybe there's something, maybe there's not" perspective all that nervous, at least the ones who I know...

Besides agnostics aren't specifically unbelievers.

 

[redandguilty]

Uh-oh. MC read that somebody said something somewhere about their religious beliefs in public!!

 

[redandguilty]

But what is immortality going to be like? Christians, Jews (the ones who believe in an afterlife, obviously not the ones who don't), Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccum...a whole bunch of other ones - they all have a different picture of immortality.

The theory I've read that I like the most is that there is an afterlife and it includes enlightenment and that the various takes that include an afterlife are just different approaches to the process of coming to terms with who you were and what you did and how you impacted those around you from an informed perspective.