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We officially don't torture anymore. Again.

Picking and choosing science for a convenient defense of abortion is subjective. When a fertilized egg becomes uniquely human is not subject to debate. At conception, it has it's own unique human DNA and by the time a woman knows she is pregnant the baby has a measurable heartbeat. Not to mention, many abortions are performed well beyond the point where the baby has a developed central nervous system and can absolutely feel pain. Arguments from viability outside the womb, all the way up to Peter Singer's insane "philosophy" is just arbitrary nonsense that pro abortionists masquerade as science to justify this barbaric practice.

still doesn't address the issue of personhood, when those cells are afforded the status of being a person is subjective.

Using your argument about being uniquely human, you'd have to give legal rights to frozen embryos from in-vitro fertilization. If someone goes through an IVF cycle and has 8 embryos, they would have to transfer all 8 embryos at some time to not interfere with the rights of the embryos.

Since it's ambiguous, let the individual make their own moral, religious, or philosophical judgement.
 
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Link:
"Today in Geneva, the United States began its periodic presentation to the Committee Against Torture, a body of independent experts that monitors implementation of the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment by States that are party to it. The Administration embraces the universal values enshrined in the Convention Against Torture?which the United States signed in 1988 and ratified in 1994?and affirms the U.S. government?s deep commitment to meeting its obligations under the Convention."
More:
Despite concerns from some civil libertarians that the statements today still allowed for some exclusions ? such as U.S. government sites in other countries ? Yale Law Professor Harold Hongju Koh praised the move.


Koh, fairly fresh off his stint as legal adviser to the State Department, went public last week with a plea to Obama to unequivocally say ?yes? to the torture ban.


He issued the following statement to the Intercept today:
When asked if the torture treaty applies without exception, the Bush Administration answered ?no.? The Obama Administration said, ?There should be no doubt: the U.S. affirms that torture and cruel inhuman and degrading treatment are prohibited at all times and in all places and we remain resolute in our adherence to these prohibitions.? That unequivocal statement explicitly changed the USG?s official position, and took a significant step forward in recognizing application of the treaty extraterritorially and in armed conflict. In so doing, they placed critical distance between them and the Bush administration.

It always seemed insane to me that, in the 21st century, in a nation that is supposed to be some shining beacon of human progress, governed by principles learned through the previous 3,000 or so years of human history, there was even a debate about whether we should torture people, let alone we actually DID for some 8 odd years. Thank fuck we've apparently moved past that.

Did ISIS agree to these terms?..oh wait, apparently not
 
Beheading someone isn't really torture, right? I guess it could be psycohological torture, but it's a pretty painless way to go.

I think ISIS still has a way to go before they catch up to Texas in terms of executing innocent people, and no one is suggesting we invade Texas.

Okay, well, I am. I think we should invade Texas.
 
Beheading someone isn't really torture, right? I guess it could be psycohological torture, but it's a pretty painless way to go.

I think ISIS still has a way to go before they catch up to Texas in terms of executing innocent people, and no one is suggesting we invade Texas.

Okay, well, I am. I think we should invade Texas.

Last time I check Texans who were executed had a trial, appeals, and 12 plus years before there fate was determined..
 
Last time I check Texans who were executed had a trial, appeals, and 12 plus years before there fate was determined..

and often exculpatory evidence that was not presented to the defense team, prosecutorial misconduct, and the use of a pscyhologist who recommended the death sentence 100% of the time without even meeting the defendants.

from the second link:
Dr. Emily D. West, Research Director with the New York-based Innocence Project, decided to see just how tolerant of prosecutorial misconduct Texas appellate courts are. The State, with the third highest rate of DNA exonerations and the highest in death penalty cases in the nation, did not disappoint. In an April 6, 2012 edition of the Austin Chronicle, Jordan Smith said Dr. West found 91 criminal cases between 2004 and 2008 in which prosecutorial misconduct was confirmed, and not one, zero, resulted in any disciplinary action against the prosecutors involved. Dr. West pointed out that another 124 cases raised the issue of prosecutorial misconduct but they were judicially ducked by the courts without a ruling.
if ISIS had a bar association, could they possibly be worse than the Texas Bar? I don't think so.
 
I think we should invade Texas. Weird. Guess I am turning commie.

...I guess it matters why though. Sure, I'm against capital punishment, but mostly I just want to liberate all that oil.
 
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and often exculpatory evidence that was not presented to the defense team, prosecutorial misconduct, and the use of a pscyhologist who recommended the death sentence 100% of the time without even meeting the defendants.

from the second link:
Dr. Emily D. West, Research Director with the New York-based Innocence Project, decided to see just how tolerant of prosecutorial misconduct Texas appellate courts are. The State, with the third highest rate of DNA exonerations and the highest in death penalty cases in the nation, did not disappoint. In an April 6, 2012 edition of the Austin Chronicle, Jordan Smith said Dr. West found 91 criminal cases between 2004 and 2008 in which prosecutorial misconduct was confirmed, and not one, zero, resulted in any disciplinary action against the prosecutors involved. Dr. West pointed out that another 124 cases raised the issue of prosecutorial misconduct but they were judicially ducked by the courts without a ruling.
if ISIS had a bar association, could they possibly be worse than the Texas Bar? I don't think so.

U really think all the death penalty cases have innocent defendants? How many cases a year, 15?
 
I think we should invade Texas. Weird. Guess I am turning commie.

...I guess it matters why though. Sure, I'm against capital punishment, but mostly I just want to liberate all that oil.
I'm glad to hear this, friend, but this thread is about toture.

At least, of all the bickering here, there's been no debate about torture itself, really, just some indirect arguments attacking other things, like abortion, ISIS, etc., or personal attacks.

So I'm glad we're all essentially on the same page here: the use of torture was ineffective, barbaric, and a shameful chapter in our nation's history. We still need to formally investigate and charge those responsible. I hold little hope that will happen though. When Obama got into office, he quickly dashed any hopes of that.
 
I think we should invade Texas. Weird. Guess I am turning commie.

...I guess it matters why though. Sure, I'm against capital punishment, but mostly I just want to liberate all that oil.

saudi arabia is beheading people at a pretty impressive clip, they're leaving ISIS in the dust.
 
Beheading someone isn't really torture, right? I guess it could be psycohological torture, but it's a pretty painless way to go.

I think ISIS still has a way to go before they catch up to Texas in terms of executing innocent people, and no one is suggesting we invade Texas.

Okay, well, I am. I think we should invade Texas.

painless? have you seen any of these beheading videos? It's not like they're using a guillotine or even Tinsel's "chop off your head sword". They're basically using a large kitchen knife and it takes a couple minutes to cut the head off - the victims are most certainly in considerable pain, albeit brief. Also, what about all the young girls they're forcing into marriage for the purpose of breeding? I'd say that qualifies as torture.

I'm in favor of the death penalty but Rick Perry and a few others definitely deserves to lose their jobs over the Cameron Todd Willingham case and some of them should go to jail for it as well. It's as if these idiots don't know what executing and innocent person does to the case for capital punishment.
 
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saudi arabia is beheading people at a pretty impressive clip, they're leaving ISIS in the dust.

Yes, between liberating oil and outlawing capital punishment, capital punishment is the issue I have more genuine feelings about, but liberating oil is a better reason to invade Texas.
 
saudi arabia is beheading people at a pretty impressive clip, they're leaving ISIS in the dust.

According to Reuters, SA has executed 59 people through October 20th of this year - that's w/ 0 during the holy month of Ramadan and they executed 26 in a single month so they are definitely on the rise this year. But, according to Wikipedia, ISIS beheaded 75 Syrian soldiers in a single incident and has 105 known beheadings so far this year. This only counts the beheadings - there are also multiple examples of mass executions shootings by ISIS fighters. So even if you triple the SA number, they're definitely not leaving ISIS in the dust...
 
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According to Reuters, SA has executed 59 people through October 20th of this year - that's w/ 0 during the holy month of Ramadan and they executed 26 in a single month so they are definitely on the rise this year. But, according to Wikipedia, ISIS beheaded 75 Syrian soldiers in a single incident and has 105 known beheadings so far this year. This only counts the beheadings - there are also multiple examples of mass executions shootings by ISIS fighters. So even if you triple the SA number, they're definitely not leaving ISIS in the dust...

I thought they only beheaded westerners for the shock value, I know they were killing Iraqi and Syrian army members but I thought that was more of a firing squad type thing. I did hear something recently about how a lot of ISIS fighters are secular, just displaced baathist who were looking for a way to fight back against an oppressive shia regime. strange bedfellows i guess
 
I thought they only beheaded westerners for the shock value, I know they were killing Iraqi and Syrian army members but I thought that was more of a firing squad type thing. I did hear something recently about how a lot of ISIS fighters are secular, just displaced baathist who were looking for a way to fight back against an oppressive shia regime. strange bedfellows i guess

It's definitely for the shock value but not limited to westerners. They lined the streets w/ the heads and bodies of the 75 Syrian soldiers. Apparently, there are a lot of baathists and former iraqi military mixed in that group. Which they say is a big reason why they've been able to take over so much land, oil reserves and military equipment in such a short period of time. Although I think Sadam's military was probably somewhat like Pakistan's - a mix of secular and religious fundamentalists. Only now, the fundamentalists have nothing to keep them in check. Either way, there's a whole crap load of crazy blood lust.
 
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It's definitely for the shock value but not limited to westerners. They lined the streets w/ the heads and bodies of the 75 Syrian soldiers. Apparently, there are a lot of baathists and former iraqi military mixed in that group. Which they say is a big reason why they've been able to take over so much land, oil reserves and military equipment in such a short period of time. Although I think Sadam's military was probably somewhat like Pakistan's - a mix of secular and religious fundamentalists. Only now, the fundamentalists have nothing to keep them in check. Either way, there's a whole crap load of crazy blood lust.

Bush-Mission-Accomplished_thumb%5B3%5D.jpg

 
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