4 in a row = better program

[byco42]

I challenge the notion that Michigan has not had an elite program since the 40s. It was an elite football program in the 70s. It was definitely top-five. Third in overall wins from 70-80. Ranked no lower than #8 in every year but 1979. Bowl record not withstanding, I still think so. Those teams were damn good; some were great, IMO.

 

[johnny2x2x]

I challenge the notion that Michigan has not had an elite program since the 40s. It was an elite football program in the 70s. It was definitely top-five. Third in overall wins from 70-80. Ranked no lower than #8 in every year but 1979. Bowl record not withstanding, I still think so. Those teams were damn good; some were great, IMO.

Pretty close, how many National Titles did they play for in the 70s? 2, 3 or 4? Oh, that's right, zero, but still it's a pretty good case if you don't count the Bowl games. But, 0-7 in Bowl games in the decade is hard to overlook. There is argument for them being elite in the 70s though so it's not a baseless claim even though one could argue no NCs and 0-7 in Bowls makes them not Elite and have a pretty good point too.

 

[greenandwhite95]

biggunsbob[/color]]

It would be nice to hear a UM fan once and awhile just say good game, you kicked our asses. I know a few have, small percentage, but most look for excuses or do like you did and bring up the past to make themselves feel better after a defeat. Thats why I say there are so many UM fans battling self esteem issues. It's obvious, really.

That is total crap... We all know we got a ASS kicked but M$U fans act like the Gohlston neck twist should be shrugged off.. Whatever makes you fel good I guess.. That dude is getting suspended and MSU fans act like he should be given a sainthood.

You know Bob, I have agreed that it was dirty since it happened and he should be suspended. No doubt.

But lets take a different look on this. Whats the difference between that play and a face mask ? Remember there is unintentional face mask and the other, INTENTIONAL face mask. The helmet gets twisted along with the head, happens almost every game. If you committ a face mask you get a 15 yard penalty, you don't get suspended, that is reserved for striking a player, which he did. That is what they will suspend him for, IMO.

 

[byco42]

I challenge the notion that Michigan has not had an elite program since the 40s. It was an elite football program in the 70s. It was definitely top-five. Third in overall wins from 70-80. Ranked no lower than #8 in every year but 1979. Bowl record not withstanding, I still think so. Those teams were damn good; some were great, IMO.

Pretty close, how many National Titles did they play for in the 70s? 2, 3 or 4? Oh, that's right, zero, but still it's a pretty good case if you don't count the Bowl games. But, 0-7 in Bowl games in the decade is hard to overlook. There is argument for them being elite in the 70s though so it's not a baseless claim even though one could argue no NCs and 0-7 in Bowls makes them not Elite and have a pretty good point too.

Hard to play for a national title when the only time you are ranked #1 in the nation is in one season (1976) AT ALL in the entire decade. Even had they gone 7-0 in bowls, they wouldn't have won a single national championship. The year they were 11-0 (1971) going into the RB, they were ranked 4th. And then there was '73, when they were 10-0-1 and did not play in the RB because of the AD vote was tied 5-5 and a tie sent OSU because of its higher ranking in the polls. Guess which AD did not vote for Michigan?

 

[johnny2x2x]

Pretty close, how many National Titles did they play for in the 70s? 2, 3 or 4? Oh, that's right, zero, but still it's a pretty good case if you don't count the Bowl games. But, 0-7 in Bowl games in the decade is hard to overlook. There is argument for them being elite in the 70s though so it's not a baseless claim even though one could argue no NCs and 0-7 in Bowls makes them not Elite and have a pretty good point too.

Hard to play for a national title when the only time you are ranked #1 in the nation is in one season (1976) AT ALL in the entire decade. Even had they gone 7-0 in bowls, they wouldn't have won a single national championship. The year they were 11-0 (1971) going into the RB, they were ranked 4th. And then there was '73, when they were 10-0-1 and did not play in the RB because of the AD vote was tied 5-5 and a tie sent OSU because of its higher ranking in the polls. Guess which AD did not vote for Michigan?

Well, you don't get ranked very high by the pollsters when every time you play in a Bowl you get beat. So if you're right, Michigan fans are holding onto this Elite past from the 70s where they didn't win a NC or a Bowl game and if I'm right Michigan fans are holding onto teams from the 30s and 40s.

And to go back to the point of this thread, it's not like State was trying to catch one of the Elite programs of the last decade like Alabama, LSU, USC, or even Ohio State. They had to catch and pass Michigan, a team that has won an average of 8 games a year the previous 10 years and 5 wins a years the previous 3 and a team they've now beaten 4 in a row. Better Program right now IMO.

 

[byco42]

And to go back to the point of this thread, it's not like State was trying to catch one of the Elite programs of the last decade like Alabama, LSU, USC, or even Ohio State. They had to catch and pass Michigan, a team that has won an average of 8 games a year the previous 10 years and 5 wins a years the previous 3 and a team they've now beaten 4 in a row. Better Program right now IMO.

I do not disagree with you, Johnny. Like I said, I posed this notion to Valenti and Foster in May of 2007 and they thought I had lost my mind. They ridiculed the idea. I didn't even stay that State's was better; I said it had drawn even with Michigan's. I saw the dark days on the horizon when RR was hired. The whole conference is suffering these days and it has to rise as one to improve the best teams to the level of...the best teams nationally. Sad to say that it takes some very shady activities to attain that status these days and I hope that the teams in this conference do not adopt them.

 

[johnny2x2x]

Yeah, it's pretty sad when I just listed the Elite programs of late and I listed Alabama, LSU, USC, and OSU, some pretty questionable programs right there. The other 3 programs would be Oklahoma, Florida, and Texas. Not a good standard IMO.

The Big Ten has helped itself though IMO with the addition of Nebraska. Out of all the Big 12 schools it's the one I would have wanted. I'd love to add ND and a top team from out East soon too. That would leave us with a solid program with outstanding tradition and more integrity as a whole than the other conferences. The SEC is just another level of Football right now. I watch a lot of Big Ten football and then switch over and watch say an LSU or Alabama play and it's like watching another class of athletes. So much faster. As good as Wisconsin is this year, if they make it to the Championship game they are going to get rolled by Alabama or LSU.

 

[byco42]

What is the reason, in your opinion, that LSU, Ala, et. al. and the rest are so much better?

 

[msuspartan]

What is the reason, in your opinion, that LSU, Ala, et. al. and the rest are so much better?

Do you watch SEC football? The players are currently faster, bigger, stronger, and overall better.

For example State vs Alabama and UM vs Mississippi State last year during the bowl games.

It's like a JV and varsity comparison.

 

[johnny2x2x]

What is the reason, in your opinion, that LSU, Ala, et. al. and the rest are so much better?

Speed! A pro scout looked at that Alabama defense this year and said every single starter will be playing in the pros and several backups. It's a pro defense. LSU's might be even faster. Switching the channels between Big Ten and SEC is like night and day the speed and physicality that the games are played with.

 

[byco42]

What is the reason, in your opinion, that LSU, Ala, et. al. and the rest are so much better?

Do you watch SEC football? The players are currently faster, bigger, stronger, and overall better.

For example State vs Alabama and UM vs Mississippi State last year during the bowl games.

It's like a JV and varsity comparison.

I know they are; I'm asking why. The defacto question is why do they attract so much of the speed and talent? What's going on down there that allows these selected SEC teams to hoard the majority of it these days? This is a development that has accelerated in the last five years or so.

 

[byco42]

What is the reason, in your opinion, that LSU, Ala, et. al. and the rest are so much better?

Speed! A pro scout looked at that Alabama defense this year and said every single starter will be playing in the pros and several backups. It's a pro defense. LSU's might be even faster. Switching the channels between Big Ten and SEC is like night and day the speed and physicality that the games are played with.

Yes ... going beyond that. I know they possess more speed. Why? Why do these players opt to play in the SEC in such unbalanced proportions. Has it just managed to become the elite league that attracts the bast players so they can compete at this level? What caused this recent development?

 

[msuspartan]

Speed! A pro scout looked at that Alabama defense this year and said every single starter will be playing in the pros and several backups. It's a pro defense. LSU's might be even faster. Switching the channels between Big Ten and SEC is like night and day the speed and physicality that the games are played with.

Yes ... going beyond that. I know they possess more speed. Why? Why do these players opt to play in the SEC in such unbalanced proportions. Has it just managed to become the elite league that attracts the bast players so they can compete at this level? What caused this recent development?

I don't know for sure, but I'm assuming better players just come from the south and they stay close to home. Florida is always one of the top states for football recruits. Maybe the warmer weather allows for practicing longer during the year? I can only assume.

 

[byco42]

Gotta be something more than that. Just weather. The weather's always been good there; the SEC has not. It's a question that I don't know the answer to.

 

[Michchamp]

I challenge the notion that Michigan has not had an elite program since the 40s. It was an elite football program in the 70s. It was definitely top-five. Third in overall wins from 70-80. Ranked no lower than #8 in every year but 1979. Bowl record not withstanding, I still think so. Those teams were damn good; some were great, IMO.

Pretty close, how many National Titles did they play for in the 70s? 2, 3 or 4? Oh, that's right, zero, but still it's a pretty good case if you don't count the Bowl games. But, 0-7 in Bowl games in the decade is hard to overlook. There is argument for them being elite in the 70s though so it's not a baseless claim even though one could argue no NCs and 0-7 in Bowls makes them not Elite and have a pretty good point too.

man... that is just one DUMB opinion, no matter how you look at it.

 

[beez]

Yeah, Michigan has won a whopping 1 more Bowl Game this Century than MSU. 3 wins to 2 wins. Sorry, you have to now go back 5 years to find a win vs State and it's not like Michigan has been an elite program this century. They had a chance at a National Title in 2006, but lost their last 2 games, other than that season they've been good, but not elite, so it wasn't like MSU was trying to catch USC or Alabama, it was trying to catch Michigan, a good program with 1 shared National Title in 60 years and coming off 15 wins in 3 seasons prior. Recruiting? Please, how much of a difference did the higher rated recruiting classes Michigan fielded the last 4 years mean?

4 wins in a row, and a much better record over the last 4 years is enough to catch and pass Michigan. 62-31 the last 2 years helps too.

It just goes towards the Michigan fans inflated image of Michigan Football. It's not an elite program and save for 1 season hasn't been elite this century.

Can we just say decade?

 

[byco42]

Pretty close, how many National Titles did they play for in the 70s? 2, 3 or 4? Oh, that's right, zero, but still it's a pretty good case if you don't count the Bowl games. But, 0-7 in Bowl games in the decade is hard to overlook. There is argument for them being elite in the 70s though so it's not a baseless claim even though one could argue no NCs and 0-7 in Bowls makes them not Elite and have a pretty good point too.

man... that is just one DUMB opinion, no matter how you look at it.

Because you never saw those teams play, your opinion is completely baseless.

 

[JScottWriter]

Lee Corso's "they pass the eye test"?

 

[beez]

biggunsbob[/color]]

That is total crap... We all know we got a ASS kicked but M$U fans act like the Gohlston neck twist should be shrugged off.. Whatever makes you fel good I guess.. That dude is getting suspended and MSU fans act like he should be given a sainthood.

You know Bob, I have agreed that it was dirty since it happened and he should be suspended. No doubt.

But lets take a different look on this. Whats the difference between that play and a face mask ? Remember there is unintentional face mask and the other, INTENTIONAL face mask. The helmet gets twisted along with the head, happens almost every game. If you committ a face mask you get a 15 yard penalty, you don't get suspended, that is reserved for striking a player, which he did. That is what they will suspend him for, IMO.

Because an "intentional facemask" is a player in the heat of the moment trying to get a player to the ground by any means necessary. It's my belief that it happens so quickly that there's no thought process. Grabbing someones facemask while nothing is going on and twisting it as much as you can is just flat out dirty and disgusting. No comparison. That would be like saying a guy who does a cut block and injures someone is no different than a guy who finds a player after a whistle and dives head 1st into his knee.

Of the facemask comparison, one is a football play that you did something wrong in the heat of the moment and the other is your intentional thought process of trying to hurt another player on the field with a dirty tactic.

In no way have I made excuses for UM losing. MSU is the better team, they played a better game..there was no luck etc..but that kid is FLAT OUT dirty for what he did and deserves his punishment...period. There is no defending it or saying it's the same as a football play.

He hsould have gotten a game for the facemask and an additional suspension for the punch.