Avila should focus most of his resources into the minor system after this offseason.

[Mitchrapp]

Sorry man, I don't buy it.

A catcher's game calling is important, his handling of the staff, the perception that he can "frame" but how much that impacts the ump is up for debate (as in literally by experts right now).

Throwing out base-stealers isn't just important for those caught but for those who don't try because they know that the catcher has a cannon for an arm. Hard to measure that number.

Then there is the passed ball and other defensive plays.

So, yeah, B.P.'s emphasis on framing at a time when folks are interrogating the metrics isn't particularly compelling for me.

Just look at HR per pitchers gave up compared to when Avila was catching. It was a huge difference.

 

[Thumb]

Sorry man, I don't buy it.

A catcher's game calling is important, his handling of the staff, the perception that he can "frame" but how much that impacts the ump is up for debate (as in literally by experts right now).

Throwing out base-stealers isn't just important for those caught but for those who don't try because they know that the catcher has a cannon for an arm. Hard to measure that number.

Then there is the passed ball and other defensive plays.

So, yeah, B.P.'s emphasis on framing at a time when folks are interrogating the metrics isn't particularly compelling for me.

I have a hard time understanding you Jack. You have enthusiasm which is good, but you can go on and on about how great things are going to be and all the sunshine and rainbows we will have based on nothing but gut feeling and "eye tests" while at the same time arguing any article written that is contrary to your opinion or any statistic or metric that does not support your conclusions.

You have called Buster Olney, one of the top baseball minds as far as journalism goes, "unqualified". You called perhaps the most complete team in all of MLB the last couple of seasons "lucky". And you have argued every statistic/sabermetric/ranking posted by at least 5 different posters as "inconclusive".

The reason you are being compared to LKP is nobody really believed he was serious in his postings, he just did it because he knew he would get responses. So pardon me but I have to ask, is all the debating and stuff you are doing in these threads just because you're bored and have time to kill? I mean I'm seriously wondering how you can argue some of these statistics. I understand not all metrics are liked by all, but how can you question pitch framing while in the same post making up an imaginary statistic concerning runners thrown out along with runners intimidated by the McCannon?

My apologies to the rest of the board for the 3 paragraph post. :bat:

 

[JackCade]

No appologize for the length, it is part of the joke.

I have a hard time understanding you Jack. You have enthusiasm which is good, but you can go on and on about how great things are going to be and all the sunshine and rainbows we will have based on nothing but gut feeling and "eye tests" while at the same time arguing any article written that is contrary to your opinion or any statistic or metric that does not support your conclusions.

You have called Buster Olney, one of the top baseball minds as far as journalism goes, "unqualified". You called perhaps the most complete team in all of MLB the last couple of seasons "lucky". And you have argued every statistic/sabermetric/ranking posted by at least 5 different posters as "inconclusive".

The reason you are being compared to LKP is nobody really believed he was serious in his postings, he just did it because he knew he would get responses. So pardon me but I have to ask, is all the debating and stuff you are doing in these threads just because you're bored and have time to kill? I mean I'm seriously wondering how you can argue some of these statistics. I understand not all metrics are liked by all, but how can you question pitch framing while in the same post making up an imaginary statistic concerning runners thrown out along with runners intimidated by the McCannon?

My apologies to the rest of the board for the 3 paragraph post. :bat:

Dude, I'm just talking. And I really do not know who LKP is and don't care that much.

Also, I do not doubt stats, I just doubt the all or nothing or over emphasizing of a stat. If pitch framing is a thing, which I think that it probably is (by this I mean it has an impact on the game), McCann does need to get better at it. Clearly. But it isn't like the Tigers' #1 problem is that James McCann is a terrible pitch framer (that is Mike Pelfrey, followed by McCann's game calling, followed by Victors knees, followed by Jose Iglesias' attitude, followed by James McCann's bat, followed by Brad Ausmus, followed by McCann's pitch framing.)
(I am not the one doubting pitch framing, others are and I am swayed by their argument.)

Clearly, McCann's biggest weakness is game calling. That is the source of the HR discrepancy not pitch framing; there is more to the story, if you look a bit, but it is still an issue.

As for Buster Olney, baseball is just a part of the US entertainment industry. Buster Olney is among the better baseball reporters, but that is only a few cuts above a reporter for Entertainment tonight: it isn't like he's Gwen Ifill or Sabastian Junger.
Sorry, but there it is.
I'm a snob.

As for why I post, I'm not quite sure why you care, as in why do we have to get personal?
Maybe I'm retired and my wife is dead and my kids don't call.
Maybe I'm 19 and I don't have a job and I spend the whole day doing this cause I have no friends.
Maybe I have a job with no supervision and nothing really to do.
Maybe I own a party store and I'm bored most of the time.
Maybe I'm writing a book and that is boring and lonely, and I post sloppy because I can't write sloppy any other time.
Maybe I'm in the hospital recovering from cancer or I'm in a hospice dying form cancer.
Maybe I'm a prison inmate who has computer access.
Maybe I'm psych major performing an experiment, I'm a rorschach test, and this is not about what I am but "we'll see what your made of / by what you make of me" as Ani Difranco sings.
Maybe I'm Barrack Obama and this is what I do every day and what I have done since taking office, because the truth is, Congress will not let me do anything else.
Maybe I'm George W. Bush and this is how I spend my time since the art thing didn't work out.
Maybe I'm a hollywood actor/director in between movies.
Maybe I'm Kid Rock.
Maybe I'm bizarro world you and I'm trying to figure away to replace you.
Maybe I don't know who I am and I'm trying to find me.
Maybe it doesn't matter... ?

Also, so there is a post limit? Why not just not read what you don't want to read?

 

[Rebbiv]

www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-beginning-of-the-end-for-pitch-framing/
http://www.thinkbluela.com/index.php/2016/01/29/pitch-framing-myth-or-passing-fad/

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...catcher-framing-umpire-data-molina-is-awesome

It is funny, in 2014 there was some talk of Avila tipping pitches...

McCann is a good catcher, his rookie campaign was strong. His pitch calling is not going to be top shelf on year one, but it got better as the season went on and he learned more.

As for framing, I'm sorry, I watch catchers try to frame watch Umps ignore them all the time.

Just because we think something exists, doesn't mean that it does, or is as important as we think it was.

You cite three links all done this year (2016). The original was done by Sullivan at FanGraphs. The other two were written, referring back to the FanGraph's piece as the basis for their argument, which make them an extension of the FanGraph's piece.

I could post dozens of articles, spanning decades, describing what pitch framing is and it's importance. Heck, I could scan an article from the 1988 Bill James book I have that also identifies the skill.

25-year old catchers either have the skill, or they don't. They don't just "learn" it at age 25. Just like hitters either have plate discipline at age 25, or they don't.

 

[Rebbiv]

Sorry man, I don't buy it.

A catcher's game calling is important, his handling of the staff, the perception that he can "frame" but how much that impacts the ump is up for debate (as in literally by experts right now).

Throwing out base-stealers isn't just important for those caught but for those who don't try because they know that the catcher has a cannon for an arm. Hard to measure that number.

Then there is the passed ball and other defensive plays.

So, yeah, B.P.'s emphasis on framing at a time when folks are interrogating the metrics isn't particularly compelling for me.

No it isn't. It is called Stolen Base Attempts per game. But both Caught Stealing and SBA/G is greatly influenced by the pitcher caught.

2015 AL AVG = .70 SBA/G (31.7 CS%)
2014 AL AVG = .78 SBA/G (26.6 CS%)
2013 AL AVG = .79 SBA/G (26.1 CS%)
2012 AL AVG = .91 SBA/G (25.4 CS%)
2011 AL AVG = .98 SBA/G (28.0 CS%)

2015 DET AVG = .72 SBA/G (37.3 CS%)
2014 DET AVG = 1.00 SBA/G (31.5 CS%)
2013 DET AVG = .97 SBA/G (18.5 CS%)
2012 DET AVG = 1.11 SBA/G (25.6 CS%)
2011 DET AVG = 1.05 SBA/G (29.2 CS%)

Last 3 Years catchers
J. McCann = .68 SBA/G (38.4 CS%)
B. Pena = .84 SBA/G (24.7 CS%)
A. Avila = .92 SBA/G (27.3 CS%)
B. Holaday = 1.08 SBA/G (25.7 CS%)
V. Martinez = 1.15 SBA/G (20.0 CS%)

Last 3 years Starting Pitchers

A. Sanchez 13.1 CS% 1.18 SBA/G
M. Pelfrey 17.9 CS% .74 SBA/G
J. Verlander 24.5 CS% .79 SBA/G
R. Porcello 31.5 CS% .88 SBA/G
D. Smyly 31.9 CS% 1.27 SBA/G

A. Simon 35.2 CS% 1.03 SBA/G
M. Scherzer 37.7 CS% .72 SBA/G
J. Zimmermann 40.0 .59 SBA/G
D. Price 41.0 CS% .54 SBA/G
S. Greene 46.7 CS% .83 SBA/G
D. Fister 50.0 CS% .34 SBA/G

A. Alburquegue 21.1 CS% 1.23 SBA/G

It makes a difference if you are catching Anibal Sanchez or David Price.

McCann caught David Price in 14 games (396 PAs) and had only 1 stolen base attempt (caught stealing). Was the low attempt rate due to McCann or Price?

Avila caught David Price in 7 games (196 PAs) and had only 1 stolen base attempt (caught stealing). Was the low attempt rate due to Avila or Price?

Sometimes, there is a fine line between Pass Balls and Wild Pitches. Pitching staff also influence this. Look at any catching staff that had to deal with a knuckleballer or Split-Finger pitcher.

2015 McCann 943.3 Innings 3 PB 35 WP = .363 Per Game

2014 Avila 1017.6 Innings 3 PB 23 WP = .230 Per Game

2013 Avila 836.6 Innings 9 PB 39 WP = .516 Per Game


Alex Avila is the same catcher. One year he only has 3 PB, while the year before he had 9 PB. But notice the Wild Pitches also were increased. I doubt his block abilities changed that much in one year.

 

[JackCade]

You cite three links all done this year (2016). The original was done by Sullivan at FanGraphs. The other two were written, referring back to the FanGraph's piece as the basis for their argument, which make them an extension of the FanGraph's piece.

There are more people talking about it, the FG's piece is cited by these, that doesn't mean they are all the same thing, they represent the fact that there is some discussion of the issue by multiple people beginning with a numbers person.

I could post dozens of articles, spanning decades, describing what pitch framing is and it's importance. Heck, I could scan an article from the 1988 Bill James book I have that also identifies the skill.

Appeal to the false authority of the past and the many.
I could cite 1000s of articles over decades talking about the communist threat and the Domino Theory, that wouldn't make the theory any less idiotic. With the advent of stats and new recording technology, lots of things come under new scrutiny. Further, the issue isn't necessarily if there is an impact on the game, which I think there is, but how much and how to measure a catcher's ability to do it or not.

25-year old catchers either have the skill, or they don't. They don't just "learn" it at age 25. Just like hitters either have plate discipline at age 25, or they don't.

:bson both counts to some degree, plate discipline can be learned, pitch identification is what is harder to learn, which is what makes plate discipline pay off; but, still, there is some learning that can happen, just not enough to make much of an impact) or, I just got off the phone with Al Avila, he told me to tell you get on the bus and get down to Lakeland they are convinced you are the foremost expert.


All or nothing logic is silly. James McCann is not a disaster as a catcher, he is not the Tigers #1 problem. If he was the problem, he'd be out of a job. In the competitive sports industry only one thing matters. Winning.
I don't like Brad Ausmus as a MLB manager, but I do not believe for a second that he would have a starting catcher who was costing the team 17 runs a season because he sucked. And Rebbiv, you can get every singly mo-fo at Fangraphs and anyone else you want to confront Brad Ausmus on such a question, and unless you got some people who actually know the game of baseball and catching as Ausmus does, I'm not going to buy it, and neither should any sane person.
The numbers are great man, but the people who've actually done the thing at the highest level know things about the game that the numbers are decades from figuring out, if they ever do. Because, that is the nature of the high bandwidth of the lived versus the narrow bandwidth of the simulated.

Read Baudrillard's Impossible Exchange it is a thin book that gets after this question.

 

[JackCade]

No it isn't. It is called Stolen Base Attempts per game. But both Caught Stealing and SBA/G is greatly influenced by the pitcher caught.

No, it is the player that doesn't run on the catcher because the catcher's reputation ability to throw'em out at second.

So let me ask you this, why do you like to assume that other people are stupid? Do you always do this with people who disagree with you?

 

[Rebbiv]

There are more people talking about it, the FG's piece is cited by these, that doesn't mean they are all the same thing, they represent the fact that there is some discussion of the issue by multiple people beginning with a numbers person.


Appeal to the false authority of the past and the many.
I could cite 1000s of articles over decades talking about the communist threat and the Domino Theory, that wouldn't make the theory any less idiotic. With the advent of stats and new recording technology, lots of things come under new scrutiny. Further, the issue isn't necessarily if there is an impact on the game, which I think there is, but how much and how to measure a catcher's ability to do it or not.

:bson both counts to some degree, plate discipline can be learned, pitch identification is what is harder to learn, which is what makes plate discipline pay off; but, still, there is some learning that can happen, just not enough to make much of an impact) or, I just got off the phone with Al Avila, he told me to tell you get on the bus and get down to Lakeland they are convinced you are the foremost expert.


All or nothing logic is silly. James McCann is not a disaster as a catcher, he is not the Tigers #1 problem. If he was the problem, he'd be out of a job. In the competitive sports industry only one thing matters. Winning.
I don't like Brad Ausmus as a MLB manager, but I do not believe for a second that he would have a starting catcher who was costing the team 17 runs a season because he sucked. And Rebbiv, you can get every singly mo-fo at Fangraphs and anyone else you want to confront Brad Ausmus on such a question, and unless you got some people who actually know the game of baseball and catching as Ausmus does, I'm not going to buy it, and neither should any sane person.
The numbers are great man, but the people who've actually done the thing at the highest level know things about the game that the numbers are decades from figuring out, if they ever do. Because, that is the nature of the high bandwidth of the lived versus the narrow bandwidth of the simulated.

Read Baudrillard's Impossible Exchange it is a thin book that gets after this question.

You are pretty much negating everything I present with BS responses or straw man responses. Your are a troll by definition, who likes to drone on about nothing. You rarely post without going back and editing your post. News flash, I am not the only one that takes issue to what you post and the manner you do it.

Once again, I am done responding to you. You don't deserve the attention by me or any other poster here. Once people stop paying you attention (or put you on ignore), you just might get bored and go away.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Go your separate ways or block yourselves. Not putting up with this anymore.

 

[JackCade]

Once again, I am done responding to you. You don't deserve the attention by me or any other poster here. Once people stop paying you attention (or put you on ignore), you just might get bored and go away.

I like when someone insults me repeatedly and than has the gal to call me a troll.
It is especially sweet when the person says that people hate me when there are people that hate them, like, having openly said they do.
Who other than you doesn't like me Rebbiv?

Look, stop taking this so seriously. You'll have a better time.:spin:

 

[Rebbiv]

Go your separate ways or block yourselves. Not putting up with this anymore.

Done. He is on my ignore list. The rest of you can deal with it.

 

[JackCade]

Go your separate ways or block yourselves. Not putting up with this anymore.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha
:cheers::tup:

Sooooo sorry I posted on your forum. I won't do it again.

 

[byco42]

Done. He is on my ignore list. The rest of you can deal with it.

I blocked him several days ago.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha
:cheers::tup:

Sooooo sorry I posted on your forum. I won't do it again.

There's a time to just walk away. Move on. This does no good, you guys aren't even having a conversation anymore. Just one long bitchfest.

 

[tomdalton22]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha
:cheers::tup:

Sooooo sorry I posted on your forum. I won't do it again.

bye

 

[kalinecountry]

Well, once again I come home from my part time gig and see another shit storm.
I do not like seeing long time posters from as far back as over a decade ago at espn being laughed at. The descriptions are accurate from what I have watched these past few weeks.
This will be taken care of. Mitch, I will inbox you.

 

[tomdalton22]

Well, once again I come home from my part time gig and see another shit storm.
I do not like seeing long time posters from as far back as over a decade ago at espn being laughed at. The descriptions are accurate from what I have watched these past few weeks.
This will be taken care of. Mitch, I will inbox you.

Guys like Jake and LKP...banning shouldn't be the answer. I think, we as posters, should just determine when enough is enough and just block them. The thing is...I think almost everyone can contribute to discussions even if we all don't agree...that is kind of the purpose of these forums.

 

[kalinecountry]

greenbeerd check you inbox.

 

[kalinecountry]

Guys like Jake and LKP...banning shouldn't be the answer. I think, we as posters, should just determine when enough is enough and just block them. The thing is...I think almost everyone can contribute to discussions even if we all don't agree...that is kind of the purpose of these forums.

Whether you agree or disagree, It is up to the mods to decide when stronger courses of action needs to be taken.
and this type of action rarely happens, only when a poster is making a huge effort to go after anyone he feels like.

 

[byco42]