Basketball early games thread

[MSUMatt28]

Rutgers played hard, but despite the gaudy rebounding numbers overall we don't do a good job of blocking out. Rely too much on length and athleticism. They got almost as many offensive rebounds as Duke. Offensively we got pretty good shots, but didn't knock down as many as we should have. It happens. JJJ saved MSU in the second half.

As for Ward I didn't see much of the first half, but obviously Izzo was unhappy with him and Winston at halftime. Luckily Winston stepped it up late. Ward probably did deserve to sit some, but Izzo can only go to that well so many times. Schilling, Goins, and Tillman weren't necessarily more effective in their time.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

Ward will transfer. Can?t blame the guy if he does. We?re holding people to 28% shooting and Izzo still gets on him for bad defense. He has more talent than Schilling, Goins, and whatever the hell the transfers name is combined. I can?t say how many times I?ve said this but play your best players, stop with the fucking mind games. Seeing Tum Tum and Goins on the floor is so disappointing and uneccasary

 

[Sbee]

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[Sbee]

Ward will transfer. Can?t blame the guy if he does. We?re holding people to 28% shooting and Izzo still gets on him for bad defense. He has more talent than Schilling, Goins, and whatever the hell the transfers name is combined. I can?t say how many times I?ve said this but play your best players, stop with the fucking mind games. Seeing Tum Tum and Goins on the floor is so disappointing and uneccasary

He won't transfer, he'll go to the NBA, he got graded after last year.

Not sure exactly what transpired but I'd bet it had something to do with effort and focus. Schilling was terrible in his place, 3 moving screens though the last one was bs. Goins played ok, had a few big boards and kept the ball alive a few times but of course they don't bring what Nick had. I assume Izzo is trying to get him to play 100% night in and night out, did the same thing with Branden Dawson

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[LuciousGameWinner]

Nick Ward, when asked what he needs to do better: "Can you guys name a big that killed me this year? Can you name a big that scored over eight points on me this year? Have I fouled out of any games?"

That?s a frustrated player. Beyond frustrated. Ward is the most dominant low post player in the country!!!! The fact that he gives up 3 layups a game (which I really don?t see because Jackson is protecting the rim) is fine by me. PLAY HIM!!!

 

[SpartyNash]

I’m sorry but I vehemently disagree with the mentality of benching a guy for that as was the case tonight. Ward at his worst defensively is 90% of the time still a better option on the court than goins and even Schilling. Same with Winston being benched a bulk of the second half IIRC. There’s a time and place to rip a guy and give him the tough love/teach a lesson, but to me it’s not in a close game on the road especially a conference opponent. You can get away with that for a stretch of time in a blowout win/loss, not today. There’s a reason I’m sitting on my couch watching games and Izzo is in the HOF but I just hate that line of thinking.

 

[MSUMatt28]

Like I kind of said previously, you can certainly try to "teach them a lesson" and put a talented player on the bench when they're not doing what you want. But if you overplay your hand there, eventually the player rather than getting mad and going out and playing harder, might just decide to shut down, tune you out, and say "to hell with this". Hopefully Ward isn't at that point, but he seems awfully close based on tonight.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

Ward played 30 seconds in the 2nd half, his mom is tweeting about it. He also was the only guy not up cheering after Jackson's dunk

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I didnt get to watch this one but looked at the box score. I saw Wards low minutes as I looked right going through the numbers I assumed it was due to early fouls. I saw 0 fouls and then assumed injury. Now it looks like neither?? Id be pissed if I were him also. We dont know what happened behind the scenes but it better be justified to bench such a great player while struggling for a win 80% of the game. :shrug: He sounds pissed, as he should be.

 

[gotime909]

I've said it the last two years that it's bullshit that Izzo looks for reasons to sit Ward and play Goins. I don't get it and never will. It WILL cost us wins. I love Izzo, but this just doesn't make sense and could possibly ruin our season.

 

[johnny2x2x]

#14 Minny got soundly beat at Nebraska last night. Road games are tough.

 

[Sbee]

I?m sorry but I vehemently disagree with the mentality of benching a guy for that as was the case tonight. Ward at his worst defensively is 90% of the time still a better option on the court than goins and even Schilling. Same with Winston being benched a bulk of the second half IIRC. There?s a time and place to rip a guy and give him the tough love/teach a lesson, but to me it?s not in a close game on the road especially a conference opponent. You can get away with that for a stretch of time in a blowout win/loss, not today. There?s a reason I?m sitting on my couch watching games and Izzo is in the HOF but I just hate that line of thinking.

What about not playing a guy for not giving 100% effort? Playing down to the level of an opponent? What if you challenge the guy to give more effort at halftime and he doesn't seem to care?

 

[MSUMatt28]

I'm all for taking guys out of the game that aren't doing what you want, and even on occasion (as in a handful of times a year, not every other week) attempting to send a strong message to light a fire under a player. But at least be fair about it. Rutgers was getting offensive rebounds all over the place in the second half yesterday with the other guys in there, but there didn't seem to be the same repercussions for that.


And Izzo shouldn't be trying to put it on the media saying they're creating a "quarterback controversy" or whatever he said. If your leading or second leading scorer plays 1 minute in the second half of a road conference game that is in doubt and he's healthy and not in foul trouble, be prepared to answer questions about it.

 

[SpartyNash]

What about not playing a guy for not giving 100% effort? Playing down to the level of an opponent? What if you challenge the guy to give more effort at halftime and he doesn't seem to care?

If a guy is flat out not trying and just out there totally dicking around then no I don’t have a problem benching him. But in wards and Winston’s case it sounds like it was more to do with poor defense. Also I hate to say it but there is a double standard when it’s a key cog. You’ll never sell me that izzo didn’t partly cost us the MTSU game in 2016 (and potentially a national title) for benching deyonta Davis due to subpar defense in favor of Colby Wollenman.

 

[Sbee]

If a guy is flat out not trying and just out there totally dicking around then no I don?t have a problem benching him. But in wards and Winston?s case it sounds like it was more to do with poor defense. Also I hate to say it but there is a double standard when it?s a key cog. You?ll never sell me that izzo didn?t partly cost us the MTSU game in 2016 (and potentially a national title) for benching deyonta Davis due to subpar defense in favor of Colby Wollenman.

I just read a good write up about Ward in the first half, he actually played more minutes than he usually does and there were no glaring errors. You could get really picky on a bad pass or bad decision but overall he was a plus player. Given that plus the quotes after the game, I'd assume it was something that happened in the locker room. I don't the extent but I will say there's no excuse for Ward not being a good teammate when he's not playing.

 

[SpartyNash]

I just read a good write up about Ward in the first half, he actually played more minutes than he usually does and there were no glaring errors. You could get really picky on a bad pass or bad decision but overall he was a plus player. Given that plus the quotes after the game, I'd assume it was something that happened in the locker room. I don't the extent but I will say there's no excuse for Ward not being a good teammate when he's not playing.

I don?t disagree there. The whole keeping a distance from the rest of the bench, zoning out during timeouts and looking up at the Jumbotron after being benched is flat out petulant.

 

[Spartan23MSU]

I've said it the last two years that it's bullshit that Izzo looks for reasons to sit Ward and play Goins. I don't get it and never will. It WILL cost us wins. I love Izzo, but this just doesn't make sense and could possibly ruin our season.

Izzo makes a lot of ( im boss and ill lose if you dont listen to me) reckless moves that cost MSU basketball wins. By the same token hes one of the best coahes college basketball has ever seen but he isnt aggressive. Hes willing to lose to prove a point year after year and I have some respect for his clean guy persona but cmon. I know hes always been a faithful guy when it comes to playing a below avg senior to a high flying freshmen and that is 1 GREAT REASON there isnt a second championship. He needs to let people play loose and most of all, LET THEM PLAY! Play the fucking best players and quit the god complex. There was no reason Ward should sit 95% of the second half.

 

[Sbee]

Izzo makes a lot of ( im boss and ill lose if you dont listen to me) reckless moves that cost MSU basketball wins. By the same token hes one of the best coahes college basketball has ever seen but he isnt aggressive. Hes willing to lose to prove a point year after year and I have some respect for his clean guy persona but cmon. I know hes always been a faithful guy when it comes to playing a below avg senior to a high flying freshmen and that is 1 GREAT REASON there isnt a second championship. He needs to let people play loose and most of all, LET THEM PLAY! Play the fucking best players and quit the god complex. There was no reason Ward should sit 95% of the second half.

There's a difference between sitting someone in December vs March, you can still teach lessons early on. You can see that some guys, when playing time is assured, don't get low in their stance on defense and don't commit to doing the little things well. Those little things are what lead you to have the best FG% against in the country, you need everyone to buy into that and Izzo believes the bench is a great teacher. We can second guess the Deyonta Davis decisions against MTSU, but he played 3 minutes less than his average in that game and MTSU's big men were a combined 6 of 11 from 3. We lost the game so we can second guess, but the reasons Izzo hasn't gotten a second title involve not cheating (and therefore not getting as many Cliff Alexanders) and running into hot teams at the wrong time, like 2014 with Uconn or losing Kalin Lucas and losing to Butler, etc.

Izzo likes to use the bench as a teacher, he tends to get players attention by doing that. Let's see how Nick Ward responds.

 

[Sbee]

https://youtu.be/s9bT4O5fHVQ

 

[SpartyNash]

32 point favorite tonight against Southern Utah, I’ll take the points for sure

 

[johnny2x2x]

Kansas and Duke lost. We win tonight and we're #1.