Cologne incident

[Gulo Blue]

that study sounds like a steaming pile of shit.

Why?

It could use some context, sure. At first, it didn't make much sense...why would the Communist Manifesto be read more than Wealth of Nations? Then I realized nobody uses either of those books to teach modern econ. And there aren't remotely as many econ majors as philosophy majors anyway. If you want to know what kind of economic are taught, looking at the most common book isn't going to give you the answer. There's a variety of modern books that get updated a little bit each year and price get jacked up some more. None of these books are popular (which I think is part of the model that keeps prices so high.)

But to just call it a steaming pile of shit and not give a reason? I mean it's interesting that this book is looked at so much. Nothing to be alarmed over; I think the right wing paranoia over universities being too liberal is BS too. The US is a leader when it comes to our university system and we're not that liberal. Very liberal relative to much of the world, but not Europe liberal.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Of course, this list is probably a steaming pile of shit too because uofm isn't on the list.

Yeah, actually. That's total BS.

 

[Spartanmack]

Why?

It could use some context, sure. At first, it didn't make much sense...why would the Communist Manifesto be read more than Wealth of Nations? Then I realized nobody uses either of those books to teach modern econ. And there aren't remotely as many econ majors as philosophy majors anyway. If you want to know what kind of economic are taught, looking at the most common book isn't going to give you the answer. There's a variety of modern books that get updated a little bit each year and price get jacked up some more. None of these books are popular (which I think is part of the model that keeps prices so high.)

But to just call it a steaming pile of shit and not give a reason? I mean it's interesting that this book is looked at so much. Nothing to be alarmed over; I think the right wing paranoia over universities being too liberal is BS too. The US is a leader when it comes to our university system and we're not that liberal. Very liberal relative to much of the world, but not Europe liberal.

What? It's just a numbers thing and because it's philosophy majors that are reading it, no big deal? Just because it's not being taught in economics classes doesn't mean it's not troublesome. It's these philosophy grads being brainwashed with this communist nonsense that are coming out, by your own admission, in far greater numbers than people with econ or other practical degrees. and if you read the article, you'd see that while TCM isn't taught in economics departments, Marx's Das Kapital is AND it's assigned more often than even (fake) nobel prize winner (LOLOLOLOL) uber leftist Paul Krugman's book.

The idea that Universities are not liberal indoctrination camps is naive - there is nothing even remotely close to balance at these institutions. If anything, it's the opposite with conservatives not only being outnumbered but also silenced on campus by the intolerant progressives.

 

[Gulo Blue]

What? It's just a numbers thing and because it's philosophy majors that are reading it, no big deal? Just because it's not being taught in economics classes doesn't mean it's not troublesome. It's these philosophy grads being brainwashed with this communist nonsense that are coming out, by your own admission, in far greater numbers than people with econ or other practical degrees. and if you read the article, you'd see that while TCM isn't taught in economics departments, Marx's Das Kapital is AND it's assigned more often than even (fake) nobel prize winner (LOLOLOLOL) uber leftist Paul Krugman's book.

The idea that Universities are not liberal indoctrination camps is naive - there is nothing even remotely close to balance at these institutions. If anything, it's the opposite with conservatives not only being outnumbered but also silenced on campus by the intolerant progressives.

We don't know from the numbers how they're being read. I think the proof is in the society that you get as a result. Are universities more liberal now than they were in the 60's and 70's? I doubt it. They've been at least this liberal for a long time. So are we becoming socialist?

Doesn't look like it to me: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=us+budget/us+gdp

 

[Gulo Blue]

and if you read the article, you'd see that while TCM isn't taught in economics departments, Marx's Das Kapital is AND it's assigned more often than even (fake) nobel prize winner (LOLOLOLOL) uber leftist Paul Krugman's book.

Yeah, but it's important to know the context. If you're going to study economics, you absolutely should study all the things that have been tried and what about them worked and what failed. A key word in that sentence was "when Marx is taught". It doesn't necessarily mean they're teaching that it's a good idea.

I just think attacking universities is lazy. I mean, come on, if you want to look at a study of university economics teaching and argue that it leans left, but the results point to Marx and not Keynes, that should be your first clue that something is off with the methodology. It doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[Michchamp]

Why?

It could use some context, sure. ...

it needs a TON of context, as well as a TON of disclaimers up front. first that it's a "work in progress" not a complete study, which is the kind of thing that should be in the first sentence, not buried several paragraphs in.

second that's it's not even an actual survey, just an web scrape of publicly available syllabi

i find it hard to believe its claim that Mankiw (an economist who worked for Bush Jr.) is not found in ANY syllabi of any college online.. as they claim. We used his textbooks for several courses at UM. makes me question how legit their methodology is.

also this makes me question whether spartandipshit actually went to college. i would be surprised to learn MSU aka "fall back university" is a hotbed of marxist thought. maybe it was when he was there? sbee? can you confirm? did most of your "landscape management," marketing, and "advanced product packaging" courses teach the communist manifesto?

In my own experience, BA econ, UM, I encountered The Communist Manifesto exactly once (1) in an upper level elective course. marx was taught alongside other economists, such as Smith, Mill, Veblen, Keynes, Schumpeter, Friedman, etc. actually the Communist Manifesto wasn't even the focus... it's just a manifesto, not a work of economics. that would be Marx's other work, the multi-volume Das Kapital.

also this course was taught by an adjunct... you will find yourself off the tenure track at just about every major university (including "super liberal" UM!) if you are a Marxist. but to hear some people talk about liberal brainwashing on college campuses... jesus. have they ever actually set foot on campus? or just tuned in to Fox News to learn about what "college kids" are up to these days?

 

[tinselwolverine]

or just tuned in to Fox News to learn about what "college kids" are up to these days?

I was watching Bill O'Reilly last night, and according to him, because of the Commie Manifesto and Call Me Kaitlyn, college kids these days are trying to take away the 1st Amendment rights of Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock, and Carlos Mencia.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I was watching Bill O'Reilly last night, and according to him, because of the Commie Manifesto and Call Me Kaitlyn, college kids these days are trying to take away the 1st Amendment rights of Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock, and Carlos Mencia.

Seinfeld doesn't need Constitutional rights. He can afford to buy any rights he needs.

I'm loving Comedians in Cars, Getting Coffee.

 

[Michchamp]

I was watching Bill O'Reilly last night, and according to him, because of the Commie Manifesto and Call Me Kaitlyn, college kids these days are trying to take away the 1st Amendment rights of Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock, and Carlos Mencia.

can you believe college kids don't tune into O'Reilly regularly? Nor are his ghostwritten best sellers "Killing Jesus" "Killing Patton" "Killing Kennedy" "Killing Lincoln" or "The O'Reilly Factor For Kids" taught in college courses.

It's gotta be that goddamn Marxist brainwashing, I tell you!

 

[Spartanmack]

We don't know from the numbers how they're being read. I think the proof is in the society that you get as a result. Are universities more liberal now than they were in the 60's and 70's? I doubt it. They've been at least this liberal for a long time. So are we becoming socialist?

Doesn't look like it to me: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=us+budget/us+gdp

Absolutely universities are more liberal now than they were in the 60s and 70s and we as a society are becoming more socialist. it appears that way to the St. Louis Fed - maybe their data isn't as reliable as Wolfrmalpha's...

https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/FYONGDA188S

 

[Spartanmack]

Yeah, but it's important to know the context. If you're going to study economics, you absolutely should study all the things that have been tried and what about them worked and what failed. A key word in that sentence was "when Marx is taught". It doesn't necessarily mean they're teaching that it's a good idea.

I just think attacking universities is lazy. I mean, come on, if you want to look at a study of university economics teaching and argue that it leans left, but the results point to Marx and not Keynes, that should be your first clue that something is off with the methodology. It doesn't pass the smell test.

Why do we only need to focus on economics? It's absurd to think it's only relevant if it's being taught by econ departments. The issue is that it's the mostly widely assigned book, not the most widely assigned econ book. communism isn't only about economics.

What I think is lazy is ignoring the preponderance of evidence and saying "attacking universities is lazy". Saying it's not troublesome that Marx is the most widely assigned reading in American Universities because it doesn't seem to be taught in econ classes - which again, as you say has far fewer students than disciplines teaching Marx is lazy. There's no shortage of evidence to indicate universities are overwhelming leftist like the fact that Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto, PC safe spaces, trigger warnings, stifling free speech, faculty donations to political campaigns, etc, etc. If you consider all those factors and don't come to the conclusion that universities are liberal indoctrination centers, you're just being lazy.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Absolutely universities are more liberal now than they were in the 60s and 70s and we as a society are becoming more socialist. it appears that way to the St. Louis Fed - maybe their data isn't as reliable as Wolfrmalpha's...

https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/FYONGDA188S

Gross investment includes what government spends on structures, equipment, and software, such as new highways, schools, and computers.
...
Apparently, the difference between the number is this:

In addition to the transactions that are included in current expenditures, this measure includes gross investment (as defined earlier), and other capital-type expenditures that affect future-period activities, such as capital transfer payments and net purchases of nonproduced assets (for example, land). Total expenditures exclude consumption of fixed capital (CFC), which is a noncash charge.

Anyway, I think it's fair to count it.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Why do we only need to focus on economics?

We don't. This conversation is framed that way because that article singled out economics.

 

[grandy]

Why do we only need to focus on economics? It's absurd to think it's only relevant if it's being taught by econ departments. The issue is that it's the mostly widely assigned book, not the most widely assigned econ book. communism isn't only about economics.

What I think is lazy is ignoring the preponderance of evidence and saying "attacking universities is lazy". Saying it's not troublesome that Marx is the most widely assigned reading in American Universities because it doesn't seem to be taught in econ classes - which again, as you say has far fewer students than disciplines teaching Marx is lazy. There's no shortage of evidence to indicate universities are overwhelming leftist like the fact that Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto, PC safe spaces, trigger warnings, stifling free speech, faculty donations to political campaigns, etc, etc. If you consider all those factors and don't come to the conclusion that universities are liberal indoctrination centers, you're just being lazy.

Just out of curiosity, how would you go about fixing these issues and bringing political balance to higher education? Or do you point this out in a way that nothing can be done about it?

 

[Gulo Blue]

Why do we only need to focus on economics? It's absurd to think it's only relevant if it's being taught by econ departments. The issue is that it's the mostly widely assigned book, not the most widely assigned econ book. communism isn't only about economics.

What I think is lazy is ignoring the preponderance of evidence and saying "attacking universities is lazy". Saying it's not troublesome that Marx is the most widely assigned reading in American Universities because it doesn't seem to be taught in econ classes - which again, as you say has far fewer students than disciplines teaching Marx is lazy. There's no shortage of evidence to indicate universities are overwhelming leftist like the fact that Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto, PC safe spaces, trigger warnings, stifling free speech, faculty donations to political campaigns, etc, etc. If you consider all those factors and don't come to the conclusion that universities are liberal indoctrination centers, you're just being lazy.

One person drawing a conclusion, what ever it is, isn't lazy on the scale of steering left vs. right in the country. What I meant was that universities are for teaching the best ideas we have. Instead of whining about how left they lean, it's the responsibility of people that lean right to get in there and teach the best ideas the right has to offer.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Just out of curiosity, how would you go about fixing these issues and bringing political balance to higher education? Or do you point this out in a way that nothing can be done about it?

You beat me to it.

 

[Spartanmack]

it needs a TON of context, as well as a TON of disclaimers up front. first that it's a "work in progress" not a complete study, which is the kind of thing that should be in the first sentence, not buried several paragraphs in.

second that's it's not even an actual survey, just an web scrape of publicly available syllabi

i find it hard to believe its claim that Mankiw (an economist who worked for Bush Jr.) is not found in ANY syllabi of any college online.. as they claim. We used his textbooks for several courses at UM. makes me question how legit their methodology is.

also this makes me question whether spartandipshit actually went to college. i would be surprised to learn MSU aka "fall back university" is a hotbed of marxist thought. maybe it was when he was there? sbee? can you confirm? did most of your "landscape management," marketing, and "advanced product packaging" courses teach the communist manifesto?

In my own experience, BA econ, UM, I encountered The Communist Manifesto exactly once (1) in an upper level elective course. marx was taught alongside other economists, such as Smith, Mill, Veblen, Keynes, Schumpeter, Friedman, etc. actually the Communist Manifesto wasn't even the focus... it's just a manifesto, not a work of economics. that would be Marx's other work, the multi-volume Das Kapital.

also this course was taught by an adjunct... you will find yourself off the tenure track at just about every major university (including "super liberal" UM!) if you are a Marxist. but to hear some people talk about liberal brainwashing on college campuses... jesus. have they ever actually set foot on campus? or just tuned in to Fox News to learn about what "college kids" are up to these days?

Half-assed attempts to discredit the data, hand waiving and anecdotes - trumps real evidence every time.

Have you ever set foot on a college campus? According to this survey https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/10/24/survey-finds-professors-already-liberal-have-moved-further-left 62.7% of faculty at 4 year colleges and Universities self-identify as liberal (50.3) or far left (12.4% - that's up nearly 50% in 3 years). Of course that survey is 5 years old and we all know academia has taken a hard right turn since 2011. Then there's the summary of this survey by the University of Toronto http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Political_beliefs_of_academics and this study by George Mason University http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html

But according to you, American universities aren't bastions of liberalism because they aren't dominated by Marxists and anyone far left will find themselves off the tenure track at just about every major university. Both assertions of course, are complete nonsense. Where do you get this stuff? Do you ever do anything to back it up? I suspect you'll just keep quiet rather than attempt to defend your bullshit assertion - as you usually do when you yet another unsubstantiated assertion.

 

[Spartanmack]

We don't. This conversation is framed that way because that article singled out economics.

It did not single out economics - if it singled out economics, TCM wouldn't be the most assigned book in American Universities. The point it made about economics was that TCM, while the most widely assigned book by far was not being taught in economics classes. It also said, in economics departments, professors assigned Das Kapital more frequently than TCM.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It did not single out economics - if it singled out economics, TCM wouldn't be the most assigned book in American Universities. The point it made about economics was that TCM, while the most widely assigned book by far was not being taught in economics classes. It also said, in economics departments, professors assigned Das Kapital more frequently than TCM.

Yeah it does, right in the title. It the search wasn't limited to econ, it wouldn't be the most assigned book. It would be Strunk&White or The Republic.

 

[Spartanmack]

Just out of curiosity, how would you go about fixing these issues and bringing political balance to higher education? Or do you point this out in a way that nothing can be done about it?

That's a tough question. I think, without a total collapse of the system, which I don't think anyone sees happening or wants, given the grip liberals have on academia (as well as the media and hollywood) it would be very difficult for conservatives to gain any ground and balance the scales. You would have to have something akin to the BLM for conservatives - they declare themselves some sort of special victim status that requires protection, put for a list of demands that includes political ideology quotas in hiring, etc. That said, I don't think not having a viable solution doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist or in any way discredits anyone who makes the point about universities being politically unbalanced, as you seem to be indicating by your post.