Coronainsanity

[Gulo Blue]

In my view, we practice science so we can understand the way things work so we can take action to improve our situation according to our goals and values.

It is not to take a 100 year old description of evolution and try to derive goals and values from it. That's not good science or good philosophy. I don't know what that is.

 

[tigermud]

No, the dehumanizing is done by those who attempt to force others into doing something that could cause them to have severe complications, and when they refuse, they are dehumanized through discrimination, including being terminated from jobs. My support is for those who deserve respect as Medically Exempt, something you are still unwilling to be open-minded enough to allow them equal freedoms. If that means I suffer the same discrimination that they face, then so be it. I am not going to turn my back on them. They deserve to be respected, treated with dignity.

I have been around too many Give Kids the World and Make A Wish kids to not support them. In cases where someone is able to be vaxxed and choose to do it, I'm not stopping them in any way. The opposite is not true, there is no equal rights for those who should be Medically Exempt. I will always stand up for them, and I will place myself in as similar a situation as possible so that I understand their situation as much as possible, such that if they are being denied a freedom then no one should have that freedom.

It really is not that difficult to create a way to exempt them. You support the fear that doctors will be giving out the exemptions like candy. I believe it is more important to preserve freedom and equality than to cave to fears about someone abusing that system.

I'm sure the pro-mandate group would still eye the exempt groups with a suspicious mind, but they deserve equal rights. I'm sure they will still be forced to jump through hoops like frequent testing, but the reality is if vaxxed are ae to spread it, even if to a lesser extent, then the non-vaxxed should not be treated as they are currently.

That's about science. That is about freedom.

You have every right to voice concerns. What you do not have the right to do is restrict freedom when their is a minimal addition to the threat posed by anyone unvaxxed.

Asymptomatic are now being considered a non-concern by the medial experts. They are finally backing off many of their fear mongering ways, even have reduced quarantine recommendations. That is the start of their backing down, expect it to continue until they finally admit the reality staring them in the face. Hoping will it take for the pro-mandate people to admit that the mandates were wrong from the beginning. When will they be apologizing? When will they be held accountable?

Too many have not changed their fear mongering position since March 2020. Despite all the science that points to that no longer being required, they are still pushing that narrative that was started by the initial 10% Mortality Rate. Despite its continual drop to levels that do not warrant restrictions, especially with Omicron. The Fear is still too strong.

It was the Asymptomatic spread that started the over reach to begin with and it was fruadchi promoting that left and right in the early days.

When will they be apologizing? They won?t
When will they be held accountable? Never

I?d also add those with natural immunity should be able to get medical exemption if they wish.

Supreme Court better not let us down again else it?s all pk?d

 

[zyxt9]

What does any of this have to do with your idea that a lower death rate would be unfortunate for MC?

It refutes his belief that Omicron will kill millions more. He is pushing the high death rate angle to validate mandates. His argument is invalidated by lower death rates.

 

[zyxt9]

But what is specific about this vaccine as a technology that we shouldn't use to subvert Darwinism (in your view) while we should use all sorts of other technologies that prevent death (subverting Darwinism)?

Again, I am NOT anti-vax. I'm unsure how many times I have to explain that. The thing I am against is mandates.

Personally, I am very interested in the Army/WR vax. If it is available after all the pro-mandate crap ends, that I the one I would CHOOSE to take.

This is not about an anti-vax push by me. It is absolutely about Freedom and allowing people to choose what happens to their own personal body. If someone is under the impression that the vax will cause them harm based on consults with a doctor (and preferably 2nd and 3rd opinions by other doctors) who am I or anyone else to demand they take the vax or suffer from discrimination? That is as anti-American as a person can be! It is no wonder Champ supports that, or other Socialists.

The scientific data does not support a mandate. A lack of a mandate and freedom of choice must be preserved in this situation. If we were experiencing Black Death levels, maybe I could get behind a mandate.

The probabilities just do not support a mandate in this case, and it honestly should not even be considered at all. We are not at the 10% level with potential of a variant making things even worse. We are not in a doomsday scenario even if Omicron achieves a 100% infection rate plus reinfections.

None of that is to say no one should take the vax. They should have the choice. Those who opt to get vaxxed should not be criticized nor should they criticize those who do not. At no point have I said people who want the vax should not take it... but I would recommend they should consult with a doctor to rule out any known risks, such as the data pointing to a genetic connection possibility to severe side effects. That should seem like a logical recommendation, but there is a ton of fear overpowering logic these days.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Again, I am NOT anti-vax. I'm unsure how many times I have to explain that. The thing I am against is mandates.

Personally, I am very interested in the Army/WR vax. If it is available after all the pro-mandate crap ends, that I the one I would CHOOSE to take.

This is not about an anti-vax push by me. It is absolutely about Freedom and allowing people to choose what happens to their own personal body. If someone is under the impression that the vax will cause them harm based on consults with a doctor (and preferably 2nd and 3rd opinions by other doctors) who am I or anyone else to demand they take the vax or suffer from discrimination? That is as anti-American as a person can be! It is no wonder Champ supports that, or other Socialists.

The scientific data does not support a mandate. A lack of a mandate and freedom of choice must be preserved in this situation. If we were experiencing Black Death levels, maybe I could get behind a mandate.

The probabilities just do not support a mandate in this case, and it honestly should not even be considered at all. We are not at the 10% level with potential of a variant making things even worse. We are not in a doomsday scenario even if Omicron achieves a 100% infection rate plus reinfections.

None of that is to say no one should take the vax. They should have the choice. Those who opt to get vaxxed should not be criticized nor should they criticize those who do not. At no point have I said people who want the vax should not take it... but I would recommend they should consult with a doctor to rule out any known risks, such as the data pointing to a genetic connection possibility to severe side effects. That should seem like a logical recommendation, but there is a ton of fear overpowering logic these days.

Dude, our friend Champ as posted that he is AGAINST vax mandates. He supports mask mandates.

That was a number of posts ago and I don?t want spend the time to go back and look it up.

If he?s changed his opinion since he posted that post, I didn?t catch it.

 

[Michchamp]

Dude, our friend Champ as posted that he is AGAINST vax mandates. He supports mask mandates.

That was a number of posts ago and I don?t want spend the time to go back and look it up.

If he?s changed his opinion since he posted that post, I didn?t catch it.

No, that's still accurate.

These crybabies continue to outright misrepresent what others say so they have something to argue against.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Again, I am NOT anti-vax. I'm unsure how many times I have to explain that. The thing I am against is mandates.

Sure. You're not anti-vax, except for yourself personally, and somehow, that's a Darwinism issue. Makes sense.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Dude, our friend Champ as posted that he is AGAINST vax mandates. He supports mask mandates..

Where do we draw the line on what constitutes being pro-mandate? I don't think of myself as pro-mandate, but apparently, everything I've said is all about pushing mandates all the time.

 

[Michchamp]

Sure. You're not anti-vax, except for yourself personally, and somehow, that's a Darwinism issue. Makes sense.

I swear he once argued we shouldn't decriminalize marijuana because the smoke gave him headaches, then threw a tantrum and stopped posting for a year because Vic mocked him for that.

So... other than draconian policing and long jail terms against pot users to protect his tender little sense of smell, government shouldn't intervene in health issues, and just let the strongest survive.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Has anyone here faced a mandate? My employer hasn't asked.

Would an employer have to be ordered by the government for it to count for the purposes of this thread or is anybody wanting their employees to be vaccinated a mandate?

 

[zyxt9]

Has anyone here faced a mandate? My employer hasn't asked.

Would an employer have to be ordered by the government for it to count for the purposes of this thread or is anybody wanting their employees to be vaccinated a mandate?

Maybe where you are mandates have not (yet) been an issue. Here around NYC, I have been refused entrance to public areas. I'm also aware of the many medical professionals who have been forced out when they are needed, even without Covid there was a shortage.

The military is an exception IMO. They were given an order by the CnC.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Maybe where you are mandates have not (yet) been an issue. Here around NYC, I have been refused entrance to public areas. I'm also aware of the many medical professionals who have been forced out when they are needed, even without Covid there was a shortage.

The military is an exception IMO. They were given an order by the CnC.

What kind of public? Like a park or a museum? NYC is a special case. I'd have to give it some consideration and learn more about it to form an opinion.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Heads of hospitals should be best positioned to make decisions for their hospitals. What's right for a hospital in NYC at one point in time is different for another in a rural location.

 

[Michchamp]

Heads of hospitals should be best positioned to make decisions for their hospitals. What's right for a hospital in NYC at one point in time is different for another in a rural location.

If they're MDs, yes. not if they're MBAs.

 

[tigermud]

Has anyone here faced a mandate? My employer hasn't asked.

Would an employer have to be ordered by the government for it to count for the purposes of this thread or is anybody wanting their employees to be vaccinated a mandate?

Not yet but it?s coming real soon if the Supreme Court rules in favor in JAN. My son was just told before the holiday break that starting in Jan they may start requiring the vaccine if the courts rule in favor they won?t have a choice anymore else lose job. His employer does NOT want to mandate it but won?t have a choice if SCOTUS rules in favor of Biden?s tyranny else face massive fines

He?s in the age group most at risk for myocarditis. He?s got natural immunity as well already. It?s absolute BS he will have a very hard choice to make. He just got the job late summer pays well and enjoys it. Ultimately it?s his decision but man it?s just not right. I?m really praying Supreme Court doesn?t cement medical tyranny and destroy what?s left of America

 

[Gulo Blue]

If they're MDs, yes. not if they're MBAs.

Good point. But either way, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to muster up any real strong feelings about mandates. Blanket mandates over the nation seems like a sledgehammer where a scalpel is needed and lots of small scale mandates on a business by business basis seems like something a business ought to be able to decide for itself and suffer the repercussions for doing or not doing. Even if it were my call, it would depend on my business and the interaction with the public and the local conditions. I would feel a responsibility to keep my employees safe and err on the side of caution while trying to serve everybody to the degree possible.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Not yet but it?s coming real soon if the Supreme Court rules in favor in JAN. My son was just told before the holiday break that starting in Jan they may start requiring the vaccine if the courts rule in favor they won?t have a choice anymore else lose job.

He?s in the age group most at risk for myocarditis. He?s got natural immunity as well already. It?s absolute BS he will have a very hard choice to make. He just got the job late summer pays well and enjoys it. Ultimately it?s his decision but man it?s just not right. I?m really praying Supreme Court doesn?t cement medical tyranny and destroy what?s left of America

Employers have rights too. There's really only a handful of things we don't let them discriminate against.

 

[tigermud]

Employers have rights too. There's really only a handful of things we don't let them discriminate against.

Well they certainly should at least if they don?t want to mandate it to their employees the federal government shouldn?t have the right to force them to else face fines that would put them out of business. Have to trust/hope the conservative majority on the SC will prevail. Can?t assume anything though they?ve already let America down once before

 

[Gulo Blue]

If I imagine two scenarios, one where covid is super deadly and the vaccine is safe and super effective and the second scenario where covid ain't that bad and the vaccine is near worthless and dangerous, I have a hard time imagining some principle that should always outweigh the practical considerations.

 

[tigermud]

And if this were the second coming of the Black Death I?d have a different view, but that?s not what this is and too many democrats have been authoritarian tyrants. I?ll personally never even consider voting for another democrat ever again.