Corporations may get permanent Tax cuts

[Spartanmack]

it's well established that when corporations get tax cuts, they do not use the windfall to expand operations and hire more people... they either acquire competitors (and mergers lead to FEWER jobs), or they buy out legacy employees with early retirement (again... fewer jobs), or they pay bonuses to execs. link, link, link... there's a veritable ocean of op eds, research papers, government budget studies, etc. that prove this FALSE.

the myth that tax cuts lead to jobs should be belied by the trends of the last forty fucking years, but it's become accepted for some reason by a lot of Americans.

it SOUNDS logical, right?

"I know Corporate tax rates are too high because [insert blurb written by flack from some corporate tax lobbyist heard on Fox Business]."

no, you don't know shit.

what's well established is that corporations save most tax cuts because most are temporary. And they use that money for mergers & acquisitions because it's a hell of a lot smarter to do that and create value for shareholders than distribute already taxed money as dividends where it gets taxed again. Also, workers benefit tremendously from early retirement buyouts - they get a large payout and can go work elsewhere or they can simply retire, if they were smart enough to save money, but of course they're not incentivized to do that by our tax system.

Talk about who doesn't know shit - you're sitting here telling us lowering taxes is a bad thing - to believe that you have to think that money is put to better use by the government. The government is the worst resource allocator in the economy - the record is quite clear on that. Seriously, how stupid does one have to be to think that?

 

[sggatecl]

It's not impossible. the corporate tax rate should be 0%. then not only would that money come back but foreign companies would be rushing to the US to invest - just look at how many companies flocked to Ireland when they lowered their corporate tax rates.

Ireland is at 12.5%

The only countries at 0% are:

Anguilla
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bermuda
Cayman Islands
Guernsey
Isle Of Man
Jersey
Nauru
Palau
Turks And Caicos Islands
Vanuatu
Virgin Islands
Wallis and Futuna

0% doesn't seem feasible.

 

[turok]

Ireland is at 12.5%



0% doesn't seem feasible.

Ireland's population is slightly above being the equal of metro-Detroit, their land area is maybe the equivalent of 2 average size US states, their national debt is merely US $325B, however their external debt to GDP is a staggering 535%.

So how is that low corporate tax rate working out so well for them?

The issue here in Murka is jobs-jobs-jobs, not how great a long/short-term return on investments that the upper class and hedge fund managers are gaining in their portfolios...speaking of the latter, looks like someone has made out like a bandit by using his ownership of Cambridge Analytica to influence the outcome of the '16 elections via online links-ads and social media. Would he conspire to share US voters' social profile data with Cosshackers via Alfa Bank's email server?

Nah...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...lion-made-stunning-shift-after-trump-election

 

[tomdalton22]

Ireland's population is slightly above being the equal of metro-Detroit, their land area is maybe the equivalent of 2 average size US states, their national debt is merely US $325B, however their external debt to GDP is a staggering 535%.

So how is that low corporate tax rate working out so well for them?

The issue here in Murka is jobs-jobs-jobs, not how great a long/short-term return on investments that the upper class and hedge fund managers are gaining in their portfolios...speaking of the latter, looks like someone has made out like a bandit by using his ownership of Cambridge Analytica to influence the outcome of the '16 elections via online links-ads and social media. Would he conspire to share US voters' social profile data with Cosshackers via Alfa Bank's email server?

Nah...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...lion-made-stunning-shift-after-trump-election

so how do we get more jobs here in "murka" as you like to call it?

 

[sggatecl]

so how do we get more jobs here in "murka" as you like to call it?

I think it's more about getting people educated so they can take the jobs that are currently vacant but don't have qualified people to fill them. Nurses, medical administrators, IT admins...hell, even truck drivers have tons of availability. Probably more fields that I'm not aware of.

My wife has job recruiters blowing up her phone on a weekly basis trying to get her to come manage their emergency rooms.

 

[Michchamp]

I think it's more about getting people educated so they can take the jobs that are currently vacant but don't have qualified people to fill them. Nurses, medical administrators, IT admins...hell, even truck drivers have tons of availability. Probably more fields that I'm not aware of.

My wife has job recruiters blowing up her phone on a weekly basis trying to get her to come manage their emergency rooms.

I don't think it's that simple.

 

[Michchamp]

so how do we get more jobs here in "murka" as you like to call it?

slap a tax on products manufactured by workers paid less than US minimum wage, or in unsafe workplace conditions. eliminate the incentive to ship
production overseas.

make corporations bear the full burden and externalities of their activities.

don't do what complete imbeciles like spartamack suggest: corporate tax rate of zero? seriously?

take walmart for example: look at all the infrastructure one of their stores take up. miles of access roads, sewer pipes, power lines, etc. all need to be laid to allow access to a store. plus the wear and tear on roads from all their trucks moving goods from the ports, to their distribution centers, and to their stores... tax them so they are bearing the burden of those costs.

or nationalize them...

 

[Spartanmack]

Ireland is at 12.5%

The only countries at 0% are:

Anguilla
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bermuda
Cayman Islands
Guernsey
Isle Of Man
Jersey
Nauru
Palau
Turks And Caicos Islands
Vanuatu
Virgin Islands
Wallis and Futuna

0% doesn't seem feasible.

I know Ireland isn't at zero. that doesn't make it not feasible.

 

[Michchamp]

I don't think it's that simple.

the idea that education is the solution to persistent, and long term unemployment, or underemployment has been debunked - thoroughly - for a long time now. linky.

the simplest argument against the "education gap" is that if it were true, workers in high demand would be seeing their relative wages increase over time; instead for most of us, they've stagnated. the gains are all going to the top 1%.

and that's not a random outcome, nor is the 1% more educated than the rest of us professionals: lawyers, doctors, engineers, accountants, nurses, computer jocks, etc...

 

[tomdalton22]

slap a tax on products manufactured by workers paid less than US minimum wage, or in unsafe workplace conditions. eliminate the incentive to ship
production overseas.

make corporations bear the full burden and externalities of their activities.

don't do what complete imbeciles like spartamack suggest: corporate tax rate of zero? seriously?

take walmart for example: look at all the infrastructure one of their stores take up. miles of access roads, sewer pipes, power lines, etc. all need to be laid to allow access to a store. plus the wear and tear on roads from all their trucks moving goods from the ports, to their distribution centers, and to their stores... tax them so they are bearing the burden of those costs.

or nationalize them...

wear and tear on roads is mostly paid by the fuel tax paid by the trucks that use the roads (currently about $0.56 per gallon. The infrastructure for roads, sewers, etc. is a local issue.

 

[Spartanmack]

slap a tax on products manufactured by workers paid less than US minimum wage, or in unsafe workplace conditions. eliminate the incentive to ship
production overseas.

make corporations bear the full burden and externalities of their activities.

don't do what complete imbeciles like spartamack suggest: corporate tax rate of zero? seriously?

take walmart for example: look at all the infrastructure one of their stores take up. miles of access roads, sewer pipes, power lines, etc. all need to be laid to allow access to a store. plus the wear and tear on roads from all their trucks moving goods from the ports, to their distribution centers, and to their stores... tax them so they are bearing the burden of those costs.

or nationalize them...

nationalize them - like Venezuela. you calling anyone an imbecile and then posting this drivel is just about the funniest thing ever posted here.

you did almost make one good point (which you probably got from me) when you talked about taxing them for using infrastructure. but you don't slap an arbitrary tax on them for infrastructure. you simply charge tolls for roads, bridges and tunnels and you charge more for big trucks, buses, etc. infrastructure taxes should be based on consumption and the revenues should be spent on building and maintaining the infrastructure.

also walmart stores don't require miles of access roads and they pay for the infrastructure build-outs.

also 2 - corporate taxes account for about 9% of US Treasury revenues. a sum that could easily be made up for by income taxes on distributed Corp profits, increased economic activity and spending cuts (what a novel idea - spend less $).

also 3 - you're a moron.

 

[Spartanmack]

Ireland's population is slightly above being the equal of metro-Detroit, their land area is maybe the equivalent of 2 average size US states, their national debt is merely US $325B, however their external debt to GDP is a staggering 535%.

So how is that low corporate tax rate working out so well for them?

The issue here in Murka is jobs-jobs-jobs, not how great a long/short-term return on investments that the upper class and hedge fund managers are gaining in their portfolios...speaking of the latter, looks like someone has made out like a bandit by using his ownership of Cambridge Analytica to influence the outcome of the '16 elections via online links-ads and social media. Would he conspire to share US voters' social profile data with Cosshackers via Alfa Bank's email server?

Nah...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...lion-made-stunning-shift-after-trump-election

those external debt numbers are very misleading but even if we take it at face value, do you really think a debt to GDP ratio of 535% is the fault of a low tax rate? you could triple it to 37.5%, slightly higher than ours, use the increase to pay down debt and it wouldn't change that ratio meaningfully.

according to the article below Ireland's external debt to GDP is somewhere around 95% and that along with their sovereign debt to GDP ratio has much more to do with the global financial crisis in 2008 and the near collapse of the EU in 2011 than low corporate tax rates. Ireland cut their Corp tax rate to 12.5% in 2003 and debt to GDP went from 30% to 23% in 2007. it almost doubled in 2008 (crisis) and spiked again to ~115% after 2011 but has been trending down since and is now around 75%.

also, by far he largest holders of Corp equity and debt are retirement plans. the bulk of gains accrue to the holders of those accounts (i.e. American workers). the idea that those gains all accrue to the 1% is a myth, leftist propaganda.

https://ideas.repec.org/p/cbi/ecolet/12-el-12.html

 

[turok]

Punishing big business by taxing or placing tariffs on imports goes against the corporate mantra of privatizing profits and socializing losses, Most would likely respond by passing their higher costs onto consumers by raising the prices of their products and/or services, and/or cutting overhead by reducing and/or consolidating jobs, pay raises, benefits, pensions, vacation time, sick days, ect.

There are some jobs and fields here where demand still exists, but many require not only a higher education, but also experience. Often the higher wages additional benefits, and paid moving expenses are directly tied to that unfulfilled demand, and if satisfied or eventually becomes an overstock, then wages, benefits, incentives...ect...stagnate, drop, or are no longer offered. Many companies also are fond of luring those from their competitors, who are already employed in high-demand occupations, and some wil even go as far as advertising for jobs which are nearly identical to those which they have, just to learn who in their employ is looking to leave, if for allegedly greener pastures.

This GOP tax-bill apparently elliminates the deduction for student debt, which is pretty damned counterproductive in encouraging higher educations and enhanced skill-sets.

 

[sggatecl]

I don't think it's that simple.

I never said it was simple or that it was the ONLY answer. I just think it's a larger part of the puzzle. I'm not saying get everyone a first class education. But when high skilled jobs, tons of them are going unfilled, clearly there is a need.

I hate hearing 'derp, we need jerbs' when really what is meant is 'derp, we need more entry level jobs that we expect to pay premium, livable wages!'

 

[turok]

Lucky me, I was able to obtain two "entry level" occupations which put me squarely middle class...but then the cost of living was lower in the second time, and much lower the first. Both should provide me with a very comfortable retirement income, beginning one year from now.

But I wasn't saddled with student debt, didn't marry young, had no kids, needed no phone data/internet subscriptions and wasn't paying a mortgage note+property taxes the first go-round. Why some here seem to believe that those post-school nowadays can afford all of those things, plus a high car note, plus pay utilities, and food, and clothing, and appliances, and furniture, and smartphone/laptop, and insurance and rent, and credit card payments and yet still sock away 10% of their gross income on a 401K, IRA, Treasury notes, bank/CU save, or invest in anything at all is waay too funny. Since student loans are not dischargeable nor any longer deductible, everything else has to be delayed and/or budgeted for. ~50% of all Murkin marriages end in divorce, often with child-support involved....whutta country!!

 

[tomdalton22]

Lucky me, I was able to obtain two "entry level" occupations which put me squarely middle class...but then the cost of living was lower in the second time, and much lower the first. Both should provide me with a very comfortable retirement income, beginning one year from now.

But I wasn't saddled with student debt, didn't marry young, had no kids, needed no phone data/internet subscriptions and wasn't paying a mortgage note+property taxes the first go-round. Why some here seem to believe that those post-school nowadays can afford all of those things, plus a high car note, plus pay utilities, and food, and clothing, and appliances, and furniture, and smartphone/laptop, and insurance and rent, and credit card payments and yet still sock away 10% of their gross income on a 401K, IRA, Treasury notes, bank/CU save, or invest in anything at all is waay too funny. Since student loans are not dischargeable nor any longer deductible, everything else has to be delayed and/or budgeted for. ~50% of all Murkin marriages end in divorce, often with child-support involved....whutta country!!

where are all of these countries where these things are free? Maybe we should all move to these places.

 

[turok]

where are all of these countries where these things are free? Maybe we should all move to these places.

Nothing that I posted had anything to do with things being free, rather that most things are more expensive than they once were, and that wages/hours worked have not kept pace with the cost of living. The only group which has enjoyed hundredsfold increases in income has been corporate upper management. But Wall Street got billions in bailout $$$ gratis in '08, so thats okay. As was the Bush administration borrowing hundreds of of billions from China @ usurious interest rates, to help fund the invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, but thats okay too, b/c defending our freedumbs.

 

[tomdalton22]

Nothing that I posted had anything to do with things being free, rather that most things are more expensive than they once were, and that wages/hours worked have not kept pace with the cost of living. The only group which has enjoyed hundredsfold increases in income has been corporate upper management. But Wall Street got billions in bailout $$$ gratis in '08, so thats okay. As was the Bush administration borrowing hundreds of of billions from China @ usurious interest rates, to help fund the invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, but thats okay too, b/c defending our freedumbs.

so the answer is just pay everyone more money or reduce the cost of living. How does that get accomplished?

 

[Spartanmack]

Nothing that I posted had anything to do with things being free, rather that most things are more expensive than they once were, and that wages/hours worked have not kept pace with the cost of living. The only group which has enjoyed hundredsfold increases in income has been corporate upper management. But Wall Street got billions in bailout $$$ gratis in '08, so thats okay. As was the Bush administration borrowing hundreds of of billions from China @ usurious interest rates, to help fund the invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, but thats okay too, b/c defending our freedumbs.

the government made massive returns on the wall St bailout. of the $478b distributed on TARP only $26.1b was a subsidy, the rest was loans and investments. the dividends, interest and capital gains paid to treasury more than cover the lost subsidies - profits are about $52b and counting. treasury earned another $84b on Fannie and Freddie - on an investment of $187b. if I recall correctly, even the auto bailout money was returned w/ interest. the only losses I'm aware of were the hundreds of millions loaned to Obama's cronies at Solindra.

I haven't changed my position - I think the banks and autos should have been allowed to fail despite certain idiots here claiming I only care about corporate profits. i think the economy would be on better footing if we didn't bail them out but I'm at least objective enough to see that the idea that we just gave billions to wall St "gratis" is just another leftist myth.

 

[turok]

so the answer is just pay everyone more money or reduce the cost of living. How does that get accomplished?

Your party is boss now, so let them "fix" it.

But they won't.