Dantonio

[Spartanmack]

I'm a patient guy, I don't get angry dealing w/ obstinate children. Nice emoticon though - that's cute, my 13 year old niece uses those. Sadly, I think it's going to take a lot more than 5 or 10 posts for you to grow up and stop obsessing about this.

 

[RedeemerKid]

I'm a patient guy, I don't get angry dealing w/ obstinate children. Nice emoticon though - that's cute, my 13 year old niece uses those. Sadly, I think it's going to take a lot more than 5 or 10 posts for you to grow up and stop obsessing about this.

My 13 year old niece admits when she makes a mistake. She doesn't endlessly deny it while getting resentful toward the person that pointed out the mistake and try to divert attention away from the mistake by arguing that the simple act of pointing out the mistake is "obsessing".

It was big of you to admit finally that "technically" MSU has indeed beaten Brian Kelly at ND. Technically. Not really a win, it's just on record as a win based on a technicality.

Have the last word. Call me a child again. Show me how mad you are at me again. Then deny you are mad. Deny MSU beat BK. Call it a technicality. Tell me I'm obsessing while you are the one that should have just said "oops" and not turned it into a multi-page series of personal attacks on me for simply pointing out your mistake. Go ahead. Try to hurt my feelings. Make yourself feel all manly.

 

[jwlcosu]

Dantonio is not going anywhere. He's still pissed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3PKMzD5ogo

You guys have got yourself a good one!

 

[Sbee]

It will never be over and that never gets old

 

[Spartanmack]

Dantonio is not going anywhere. He's still pissed:

You guys have got yourself a good one!

I'm not convinced. Until he competes for a title when the B1G doesn't suck, doesn't have years like 2012 and competes for more elite recruits I don't think you can say he's a great coach. Personally, I think he's a mediocre coach hiding out in an extremely weak conference. Winning even 11 games in this conference won't mean much, esp if we get smoked by Oregon or some other top team in a bowl game.

 

[Sbee]

I'm not convinced. Until he competes for a title when the B1G doesn't suck, doesn't have years like 2012 and competes for more elite recruits I don't think you can say he's a great coach. Personally, I think he's a mediocre coach hiding out in an extremely weak conference. Winning even 11 games in this conference won't mean much, esp if we get smoked by Oregon or some other top team in a bowl game.

we tied for 1st in the big ten in 2010 when OSU was pretty damn good with TP and Tressell and wisconsin had Monte ball and JJ watt.

 

[johnny2x2x]

I'm not convinced. Until he competes for a title when the B1G doesn't suck, doesn't have years like 2012 and competes for more elite recruits I don't think you can say he's a great coach. Personally, I think he's a mediocre coach hiding out in an extremely weak conference. Winning even 11 games in this conference won't mean much, esp if we get smoked by Oregon or some other top team in a bowl game.

Here we go, when has the B1G been all that great? People are acting like the B1G was like the SEC at any time in the last 40 years. The B1G was a powerhouse in the 50s and 60s, was incredibly weak in the 70s and 80s, was a little better in the 90s and early 2000s, has been about the same as it's been for a decade the last few years. Even in 2006 you had two top 10 B1G teams that played no one all year and then both got hammered and embarrassed in their Bowl games, sounds a lot like the 70s and 80s when the league had no balance or depth. the B1G was no better than the Mountain West of today in the 70s and 80s.

The B1G currently has one legit top 5 team, and two legit top 10-16 teams in MSU and Wisky. Then there are a few other solid teams in Iowa, Minny, and Nebraska. That's pretty much been par for the course for 30 years for the B1G. Just because Michigan sucks doesn't mean the B1G is down. If MSU wins out the BCG will have two top 10 teams playing in it. That happens about once a decade in the B1G.

Dantonio has completely changed the culture at MSU, the fanbase expects to win and win every year now. Last year was a blip based on one bad decision IMO, keeping Maxwell as the starter. This year is more like the 2010 and 2011. Double digit wins 3 out of 4 years is likely, 7 Bowls in a row, and competing for the B1G title 4 out of 7 years. That's a far cry from John L Smith, Bobby Williams, or even Nick Saban. The fan base wanted a coach that would at least keep things close to even with Michigan, Dantonio is 5-2 versus them with the 2 losses being in OT and on a last second FG.

MD has elevated this program on the field, in the facilites, and in recruiting. The hiring of Blackwell was a genius move and we basically lead for every top prospect in the state in 2015 because of it. MD is not done, competing for B1G titles is just one of his goals, the end goal is a national title, MD knows he has a ways to go to get there, but it's in his plan.

 

[Spartanmack]

Here we go, when has the B1G been all that great? People are acting like the B1G was like the SEC at any time in the last 40 years. The B1G was a powerhouse in the 50s and 60s, was incredibly weak in the 70s and 80s, was a little better in the 90s and early 2000s, has been about the same as it's been for a decade the last few years. Even in 2006 you had two top 10 B1G teams that played no one all year and then both got hammered and embarrassed in their Bowl games, sounds a lot like the 70s and 80s when the league had no balance or depth. the B1G was no better than the Mountain West of today in the 70s and 80s.

The B1G currently has one legit top 5 team, and two legit top 10-16 teams in MSU and Wisky. Then there are a few other solid teams in Iowa, Minny, and Nebraska. That's pretty much been par for the course for 30 years for the B1G. Just because Michigan sucks doesn't mean the B1G is down. If MSU wins out the BCG will have two top 10 teams playing in it. That happens about once a decade in the B1G.

Dantonio has completely changed the culture at MSU, the fanbase expects to win and win every year now. Last year was a blip based on one bad decision IMO, keeping Maxwell as the starter. This year is more like the 2010 and 2011. Double digit wins 3 out of 4 years is likely, 7 Bowls in a row, and competing for the B1G title 4 out of 7 years. That's a far cry from John L Smith, Bobby Williams, or even Nick Saban. The fan base wanted a coach that would at least keep things close to even with Michigan, Dantonio is 5-2 versus them with the 2 losses being in OT and on a last second FG.

MD has elevated this program on the field, in the facilites, and in recruiting. The hiring of Blackwell was a genius move and we basically lead for every top prospect in the state in 2015 because of it. MD is not done, competing for B1G titles is just one of his goals, the end goal is a national title, MD knows he has a ways to go to get there, but it's in his plan.

Here we go again, more Johnny2x2x spin. At least your consistent. In the last 40 years there was a 5 year period when the B1G won 2 championships (it was actually in the last 16 years). Throughout the 90s, which was also in the last 40 years Mich, OSU and PSU all had runs at the title. Since 2002, the B1G hasn't had a whiff of it, unless you count OSU getting their asses handed to them by Florida, a whiff. When was the last time Michigan was this bad? How about OSU? By the way, until OSU beats a legit nonconf opponent, they're not a legit top 5 team - remember they play in the B1G too. If they weren't on probation last year it might have been them taking the beat down from bama instead of nd.

Leading for every top 2015 recruit in the State - I love it. How has he done for top guys thus far against Hoke? Not very good. How did he do against RR? Not very good - most of those kids became Buckeyes. How many elite recruits was Izzo in the lead for >52 weeks out? How many did he sign? And he's Tom F'n Izzo. And what's your opinion about the OCs and the offense in general? Are those all great decisions? Sure MD, has gotten this program off the mat and competing and nobody is happier to see that than me but not being Bobby Williams or JLS is not the bar for determining greatness for a coach. Losing 5 B1G games last year is more telling than winning 7 in 2010, 11 and 13.

Aren't you the guy that touted the O-line as a strength in 2013. The o-line that had 49 yards rushing near the end of the 3rd quarter against Michigan. the o-line that got the ball at the 50 five times in that game and managed 1 field goal and 3 punts (cook threw a pick on the 5th). Aren't you also the guy who talked up Iowa as a quality opponent citing their victory over a "good Iowa State team" as proof? ISU is 1-8 and hasn't won a Big 12 game. Nobody who is not getting their paychecks signed by Mark Hollis follows this team on and off the field as closely as you do but you look at the world through Green and White glasses and you constantly destroy your own credibility with this extreme homer bias.

MD is definitely leaps and bounds better than BW and JLS but it's not clear that he's a great coach.

 

[Sbee]

Here we go again, more Johnny2x2x spin. At least your consistent. In the last 40 years there was a 5 year period when the B1G won 2 championships (it was actually in the last 16 years). Throughout the 90s, which was also in the last 40 years Mich, OSU and PSU all had runs at the title. Since 2002, the B1G hasn't had a whiff of it, unless you count OSU getting their asses handed to them by Florida, a whiff. When was the last time Michigan was this bad? How about OSU? By the way, until OSU beats a legit nonconf opponent, they're not a legit top 5 team - remember they play in the B1G too. If they weren't on probation last year it might have been them taking the beat down from bama instead of nd.

Leading for every top 2015 recruit - I love it. How many elite recruits was Izzo in the lead for >52 weeks out? How many did he sign? And he's Tom F'n Izzo. And what's your opinion about the OCs and the offense in general? Are those all great decisions? Sure MD, has gotten this program off the mat and competing and nobody is happier to see that than me but not being Bobby Williams or JLS is not the bar for determining greatness for a coach. Losing 5 B1G games last year is more telling than winning 7 in 2010, 11 and 13.

comparing recruiting in different sports really doesn't work, in basketball 16 year olds are a lot closer to the finished product than 16 year old football players. you also get guys for 3 years at a minimum plus the chance to red shirt, it's apples and oranges. you also get a good opportunity to see the best players in game competition against the best with AAU, football has camps but it's not the same.

 

[Spartanmack]

comparing recruiting in different sports really doesn't work, in basketball 16 year olds are a lot closer to the finished product than 16 year old football players. you also get guys for 3 years at a minimum plus the chance to red shirt, it's apples and oranges. you also get a good opportunity to see the best players in game competition against the best with AAU, football has camps but it's not the same.

I'm not comparing recruiting in diff sports. My point is that saying that we're leading for top recruits over a year out when he hasn't won the recruiting battle in a single year yet is ridiculous.

 

[Sbee]

I'm not comparing recruiting in diff sports. My point is that saying that we're leading for top recruits over a year out when he hasn't won the recruiting battle in a single year yet is ridiculous.

we did get a kid with offers from Indiana and Kansas but i hear what you're saying, we're about 1 for 11 and we have an under the radar kid that didn't have good offers

 

[johnny2x2x]

Aren't you the guy that touted the O-line as a strength in 2013. The o-line that had 49 yards rushing near the end of the 3rd quarter against Michigan. the o-line that got the ball at the 50 five times in that game and managed 1 field goal and 3 punts (cook threw a pick on the 5th). Aren't you also the guy who talked up Iowa as a quality opponent citing their victory over a "good Iowa State team" as proof? ISU is 1-8 and hasn't won a Big 12 game. Nobody who is not getting their paychecks signed by Mark Hollis follows this team on and off the field as closely as you do but you look at the world through Green and White glasses and you constantly destroy your own credibility with this extreme homer bias.

MD is definitely leaps and bounds better than BW and JLS but it's not clear that he's a great coach.

LOL, the O line has been fantastic this year. We're rushing for 40 yards more per game than last year when we had the best RB in the nation in Leveon Bell. We're 6th in sacks allowed in the nation at .78 per game. We're 2nd in the nation in time of possession. We absolutely wore that Michigan defense down last weekend and we kept Cook clean all game, he was sacked once on an intentional grounding. It's one of the best O lines we've had at MSU in a long long time and because they rotate 7 or 8 guys all game long it has the depth to be good again next season.

As for the B1G being good, 1-1/2 National titles in a 5 year period, yes, but that's also 1-1/2 national titles in a 43 year period, 1970 was the last time the B1G won a title before Michigan split one in 1997. The B1G is better from top to bottom now than it was during those "glory" years, there are actually 8 teams that can beat any of the other teams.

As for Iowa and who they played? They've solidified themselves as a good team with some good wins and some tough games at OSU and Wisconsin. They can play with anyone and they'll be solid favorites against Michigan next weekend. We pretty much had our way with them.

You say we get creamed in recruiting and that Dantonio isn't a great coach. Well, doesn't that make him an even better coach is he is missing out on so many players? We just saw a much more talented MSU squad take apart and embarrass Michigan last weekend, despite the crooting stars, MSU was more talented and it was obvious. We also actually started more underclassmen and less seniors than Michigan did in that game too, so I don't want to hear about all the youth being the difference.

MD has the team and the program on an upward trajectory. We're not where we want to be, but we're going in the right direction.

 

[jwlcosu]

I'm not convinced. Until he competes for a title when the B1G doesn't suck, doesn't have years like 2012 and competes for more elite recruits I don't think you can say he's a great coach. Personally, I think he's a mediocre coach hiding out in an extremely weak conference. Winning even 11 games in this conference won't mean much, esp if we get smoked by Oregon or some other top team in a bowl game.

Well, to be precise, I wrote that you guys have yourselves a good one, not a great one. What separates the good from the great can be argued but its clear to this outsider that Dantonio is far from mediocre. Truth of the matter is that I don't even care that much as long as he continues to kick Michigan's ass!

 

[RedeemerKid]

There are 125 head football coaches in NCAA Division 1 FBS. By the opinions of others, I'd like to see the lists of coaches that people think are better than Coach D.

Glancing at the list, I can find maybe 13 who I would say are superior coaches to Dantonio. And not all 19 are coaches I'd take over Dantonio at MSU for a variety of reasons.

So by my high level estimation, Coach D is a top 15 coach. Just my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_NCAA_Division_I_FBS_football_coaches

 

[johnny2x2x]

There are 125 head football coaches in NCAA Division 1 FBS. By the opinions of others, I'd like to see the lists of coaches that people think are better than Coach D.

Glancing at the list, I can find maybe 13 who I would say are superior coaches to Dantonio. And not all 19 are coaches I'd take over Dantonio at MSU for a variety of reasons.

So by my high level estimation, Coach D is a top 15 coach. Just my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_NCAA_Division_I_FBS_football_coaches

I'd say that is fair. Top 15 in the country, top 3 in the B1G. He's not among the elite coaches, but is in a group that has a chance to become great.

What Dantonio and Hollis are doing for the Michigan State Football program will be felt long after they are both gone. They've changed the culture and built a winner on the field, they've dramatically updated and improved the facilities, and they've dramatically increased money to the football program.

There's a whole lot of young kids in the midwest that are growing up with a totally different impression of MSU football than a decade ago. It takes time to change perception, but just within the state there are a lot of kids in grade school who have no idea that MSU used to not even be able to compete with Michigan in football.

Dantonio appears to have a plan. We're probably at stage 7 of a 10 step plan IMO.

 

[Spartanmack]

LOL, the O line has been fantastic this year. We're rushing for 40 yards more per game than last year when we had the best RB in the nation in Leveon Bell. We're 6th in sacks allowed in the nation at .78 per game. We're 2nd in the nation in time of possession. We absolutely wore that Michigan defense down last weekend and we kept Cook clean all game, he was sacked once on an intentional grounding. It's one of the best O lines we've had at MSU in a long long time and because they rotate 7 or 8 guys all game long it has the depth to be good again next season.

As for the B1G being good, 1-1/2 National titles in a 5 year period, yes, but that's also 1-1/2 national titles in a 43 year period, 1970 was the last time the B1G won a title before Michigan split one in 1997. The B1G is better from top to bottom now than it was during those "glory" years, there are actually 8 teams that can beat any of the other teams.

As for Iowa and who they played? They've solidified themselves as a good team with some good wins and some tough games at OSU and Wisconsin. They can play with anyone and they'll be solid favorites against Michigan next weekend. We pretty much had our way with them.

You say we get creamed in recruiting and that Dantonio isn't a great coach. Well, doesn't that make him an even better coach is he is missing out on so many players? We just saw a much more talented MSU squad take apart and embarrass Michigan last weekend, despite the crooting stars, MSU was more talented and it was obvious. We also actually started more underclassmen and less seniors than Michigan did in that game too, so I don't want to hear about all the youth being the difference.

MD has the team and the program on an upward trajectory. We're not where we want to be, but we're going in the right direction.

LOL, best running back in the nation, OL has been fantastic. See this is my point. It takes more than leading the nation in carries to be the best RB. And by the way, no RBs were even selected in the first round and Bell wasn't the first so what does that tell you? By the way, we didn't have a lineman make 1st, 2nd or even honorable mention all B1G last year. Newsflash - michigan's defense stinks and we hardly pounded them into submission - we had ~45 yards rushing in the first 45 minutes. If they were tired it's because their offense couldn't get a first down. As for sacks, I think we've had this conversation before when we talked about Fuo - maybe you should revisit that list of 8 nfl caliber college sack masters you said he shut down that I then showed combined for about 9 total sacks on the year (remember, 1 guy had half of them and it's not clear he lined up against fuo)...

The Big 10 was definitely more competitive nationally in 90s and early 2000s. That's indisputable. The 20 or 30 years prior doesn't invalidate that. The fact that it's more competitive top-to-bottom now has more to do with michigan, psu and osu sucking than other teams getting better. And Iowa sucks. Period. Zero quality wins with some bad losses. And being favored over michigan (hardly a foregone conclusion) is totally meaningless.

Other than MSU over Georgia in 2011, you can't name 1 quality OOC win for a B1G team in the last 4+ years. Not one. The best you can say is wisco didn't get crushed in the rose bowl.

 

[RedeemerKid]

I'd say that is fair. Top 15 in the country, top 3 in the B1G. He's not among the elite coaches, but is in a group that has a chance to become great.

What Dantonio and Hollis are doing for the Michigan State Football program will be felt long after they are both gone. They've changed the culture and built a winner on the field, they've dramatically updated and improved the facilities, and they've dramatically increased money to the football program.

There's a whole lot of young kids in the midwest that are growing up with a totally different impression of MSU football than a decade ago. It takes time to change perception, but just within the state there are a lot of kids in grade school who have no idea that MSU used to not even be able to compete with Michigan in football.

Dantonio appears to have a plan. We're probably at stage 7 of a 10 step plan IMO.

I think the elite list might be 6 guys. Stoops, Meyer, Kelly, Saban, Miles and Spurrier. If Coach D is a cut below them, I'll take it. So are a lot of other good coaches at a lot of good programs.

 

[Spartanmack]

Well, to be precise, I wrote that you guys have yourselves a good one, not a great one. What separates the good from the great can be argued but its clear to this outsider that Dantonio is far from mediocre. Truth of the matter is that I don't even care that much as long as he continues to kick Michigan's ass!

Him being mediocre is my opinion but there is compelling evidence for it. Play calling in multiple games, Roushar, Warner, Bollman, 5 B1G losses in 2012, Maxwell 2012, Maxwell 2013, benching Cook for Maxwell for the final possession against ND. Everyone defends him by saying Maxwell looks great in practice. To who? MD and the shitty OCs he will never fire, that's who. Winning games is great but in this league it's hardly proof of anything especially in the face of evidence that suggests he's winning games despite making some piss poor decisions.

 

[johnny2x2x]

LOL, best running back in the nation, OL has been fantastic. See this is my point. It takes more than leading the nation in carries to be the best RB. And by the way, no RBs were even selected in the first round and Bell wasn't the first so what does that tell you? By the way, we didn't have a lineman make 1st, 2nd or even honorable mention all B1G last year. Newsflash - michigan's defense stinks and we hardly pounded them into submission - we had ~45 yards rushing in the first 45 minutes. If they were tired it's because their offense couldn't get a first down. As for sacks, I think we've had this conversation before when we talked about Fuo - maybe you should revisit that list of 8 nfl caliber college sack masters you said he shut down that I then showed combined for about 9 total sacks on the year (remember, 1 guy had half of them and it's not clear he lined up against fuo)...

The Big 10 was definitely more competitive nationally in 90s and early 2000s. That's indisputable. The 20 or 30 years prior doesn't invalidate that. The fact that it's more competitive top-to-bottom now has more to do with michigan, psu and osu sucking than other teams getting better. And Iowa sucks. Period. Zero quality wins with some bad losses. And being favored over michigan (hardly a foregone conclusion) is totally meaningless.

Other than MSU over Georgia in 2011, you can't name 1 quality OOC win for a B1G team in the last 4+ years. Not one. The best you can say is wisco didn't get crushed in the rose bowl.

Ohio State beat Oregon and Arkansas in Bowls in the last 4 years. NW pounded Mississippi State last year in a Bowl. Penn State beat LSU a couple years ago. Wisky became the new Michigan losing the Rose Bowl 3 years in a row. Iowa has won 3 out of its last 4 bowls. As you said, MSU beat Georgia.

Name the quality wins in the late 90s and early 00s outside of Ohio State upsetting Miami for the NC. Michigan over Washington State in the Rose Bowl? Wisky beat UCLA who was average in the 99' Rose Bowl and an even more Average Stanford in the 00' Rose Bowl. Not a lot of big wins for the B1G back then either. I mean Michigan won a half a National Title and only played 2 teams that finished in the top 15, including 0 in the top 8. The 2009 Ohio State Champions played no one until the Championship game.

The B1G has been the 3rd or 4th best conference in the country for about 20 years now, it's the same today with the SEC and ACC being clearly better, and the PAC 10 and Big 12 being about the same.

It's not that the B1G is really good this year, it's not, but it's not like it was ever great to begin with.

 

[Spartanmack]

Ohio State beat Oregon and Arkansas in Bowls in the last 4 years. NW pounded Mississippi State last year in a Bowl. Penn State beat LSU a couple years ago. Wisky became the new Michigan losing the Rose Bowl 3 years in a row. Iowa has won 3 out of its last 4 bowls. As you said, MSU beat Georgia.

Name the quality wins in the late 90s and early 00s outside of Ohio State upsetting Miami for the NC. Michigan over Washington State in the Rose Bowl? Wisky beat UCLA who was average in the 99' Rose Bowl and an even more Average Stanford in the 00' Rose Bowl. Not a lot of big wins for the B1G back then either. I mean Michigan won a half a National Title and only played 2 teams that finished in the top 15, including 0 in the top 8. The 2009 Ohio State Champions played no one until the Championship game.

The B1G has been the 3rd or 4th best conference in the country for about 20 years now, it's the same today with the SEC and ACC being clearly better, and the PAC 10 and Big 12 being about the same.

It's not that the B1G is really good this year, it's not, but it's not like it was ever great to begin with.

Apologies - by last 4 years I meant 4 most recent seasons (2013, 12, 11 and 10). OSU beating Oregon and PSU beating LSU both happened in 2009 - before they both shit the bed. OSU beating Arkansas in 2010 is a decent win. NW beating 8-5 (4-4) Miss State is not even close to remarkable. Iowa is 1 & 1 in bowl games in that stretch beating an overrated Missouri team in 2010 and getting rolled by OU in 2011. But even if I give you the win over Missouri, counting the MSU/GA that I already named, that's 3 quality non-conference wins in nearly 60 games, 1 in the last 3 seasons and zero in the last 2. In those 60 games the B1G has suffered several ass kickings and plenty of embarrassing losses to crappy teams.

The B1G was easily one of the top 2 conferences in the 90s - recall there were still a lot of elite teams that were independent then and the SEC was competitive but far from the dominant juggernaut that it is today.