Dugout defaced with swastika sign in NewYork

[Gulo Blue]

1) You're right they're not apples to oranges comparisons - they're much closer to apples to apples comparisons, and not like Granny Smith's to Gala's, more like Gala's to Honey Crisps. They're different but still comparable to some degree. The evidence I'm talking about is the evidence that suggests value choices have more to do with poverty than skin color - like for example the already cited statistic that only 7% of black two parent families live in poverty while 22% of white single parent families live in poverty. It's far more compelling that a handful of links to studies that prove there is bias in America. Nobody is arguing there isn't, by the way. The fact that it exists is hardly proof that it is the primary or even a significant driver of poverty.

2) how about the fact that 72% of black children are born out of wedlock - what are we not controlling for there? I know the left refuses to acknowledge that single motherhood is not an affirmative good - their goal is actually to destroy the idea that family and family values matter.

I think you are hung up on only half the cycle. Unwed mothers are in a bad place are are likely to become or stay poor, but you're ignoring the pressure poverty has on people becoming unwed mothers. You call it a value choice, but poverty means you have different choices and different costs associated with making them.

71% of poor families with children aren't married. The trend cuts across races. The rates from black to white actually scale with poverty rates really closely. The ratio of black to white poverty rates is 2.59:1. While 72.3% of black births are out of wedlock and 28.6% of white births, a ratio of 2.53:1. Remarkably close.

This value choice theory of yours need some kind of backing. I haven't seen it. You control for other factors, and I don't think it exists.

 

[Spartanmack]

are you saying the pressure poor people have to become unwed mothers comes from anti-black racial bias? You have the same choices re: parenthood and marriage whether you're poor or not, it's the outcome or cost of those choices that is different.

I don't see how you can't see it, it's right there in the numbers you quoted. I don't know how you can read that Heritage Foundation study and have bias be your default for the cause of poverty. If you have this near perfect correlation between unwed parenthood and poverty, isn't it pretty clear that having children out of wedlock is a one-way ticket to the poorhouse regardless of your skin color.

 

[Gulo Blue]

are you saying the pressure poor people have to become unwed mothers comes from anti-black racial bias? You have the same choices re: parenthood and marriage whether you're poor or not, it's the outcome or cost of those choices that is different.

I don't see how you can't see it, it's right there in the numbers you quoted. I don't know how you can read that Heritage Foundation study and have bias be your default for the cause of poverty. If you have this near perfect correlation between unwed parenthood and poverty, isn't it pretty clear that having children out of wedlock is a one-way ticket to the poorhouse regardless of your skin color.

No. I'm not saying that. I'm baffled wondering why you think I'm saying that.

I'll say it again. Racial bias causes downward economic pressure. Poverty, in turn, drives many things, in this case, pressure to be an unwed mother.

You are confusing correlation and causation.

People aren't starting out in the middle class, getting pregnant, deciding to go it alone, and then becoming poor. They start poor.

Being poor makes you more likely to be an unwed mother whether you're black or white. You have less access to preventative measures to reduce the chance of an unexpected pregnancy, you are less likely to be well educated, and you're less likely to be involved with a guy that is in a position to help.

 

[Spartanmack]

No. I'm not saying that. I'm baffled wondering why you think I'm saying that.

I'll say it again. Racial bias causes downward economic pressure. Poverty, in turn, drives many things, in this case, pressure to be an unwed mother.

You are confusing correlation and causation.

People aren't starting out in the middle class, getting pregnant, deciding to go it alone, and then becoming poor. They start poor.

Being poor makes you more likely to be an unwed mother whether you're black or white. You have less access to preventative measures to reduce the chance of an unexpected pregnancy, you are less likely to be well educated, and you're less likely to be involved with a guy that is in a position to help.

Racial bias may cause downward pressure but many people have demonstrated the ability to overcome that pressure.

I'm not confusing correlation and causation.

True, most people aren't downwardly mobile but it happens and I bet among those that are, single parenthood is probably a leading cause, not bias.

Being poor may make you more likely to be an unwed mother but that doesn't mean it's not a value choice, it just means that poor people are more likely to make that choice. So rather than following the left's playbook by telling people it's not their fault that they're poor, that they're victims of a biased society and having them vote for the ever expanding social welfare program, maybe we tell them the hard truth - society isn't making you poor and if you don't want to be permanently poor, then finish school, get a job and most importantly, don't have kids until you're in a stable committed relationship. You will have some hardships because of bias and we can do everything we can to eliminate that, if you do those three things, you will not be permanently poor in America.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Racial bias may cause downward pressure but many people have demonstrated the ability to overcome that pressure.

I'm not confusing correlation and causation.

True, most people aren't downwardly mobile but it happens and I bet among those that are, single parenthood is probably a leading cause, not bias.

Being poor may make you more likely to be an unwed mother but that doesn't mean it's not a value choice, it just means that poor people are more likely to make that choice. So rather than following the left's playbook by telling people it's not their fault that they're poor, that they're victims of a biased society and having them vote for the ever expanding social welfare program, maybe we tell them the hard truth - society isn't making you poor and if you don't want to be permanently poor, then finish school, get a job and most importantly, don't have kids until you're in a stable committed relationship. You will have some hardships because of bias and we can do everything we can to eliminate that, if you do those three things, you will not be permanently poor in America.

None of that is exclusive to black people. Furthermore, this idea that other minorities have pulled themselves from poverty in spite of bias; I think it's BS. There's a tremendous difference between the experience of other discriminated classes and the experience of African Americans and even if there weren't, it certainly wouldn't make it right. I don't believe you have a shred of evidence behind your value choice theory, any indication that faced with similar pressures, black people make different choices.

I think you're willfully ignoring things you've probably heard about upward mobility in America. You don't seem to be living under a rock where you wouldn't have heard.

 

[Spartanmack]

None of that is exclusive to black people. Furthermore, this idea that other minorities have pulled themselves from poverty in spite of bias; I think it's BS. There's a tremendous difference between the experience of other discriminated classes and the experience of African Americans and even if there weren't, it certainly wouldn't make it right. I don't believe you have a shred of evidence behind your value choice theory, any indication that faced with similar pressures, black people make different choices.

I think you're willfully ignoring things you've probably heard about upward mobility in America. You don't seem to be living under a rock where you wouldn't have heard.

where did I say any of it was exclusive to black people? none of it, including bias is. you may think it's bs but that doesn't make it bs. if you can look at a mountain of evidence and not see a shred of it, then I can't make you see it. The fact is, if you finish school, get a job and wait to have kids until you are married you won't be permanently poor in America. This pressure differential isn't the only or even the driving force behind it. you have a political party with massive influence, particularly with the black community telling everyone single parent families are no different, that people who say otherwise are wrong (and racist), that welfare is the leg up they need, not motivation to make the right value choices.

what am I willfully ignoring about upward mobility? are you in the Sbee camp here, where people falsely believe it doesn't exist? there is tremendous wage mobility in America. according to IRS statistics, 90% of people born into the bottom 20% of wage earners will not be in the bottom 20% within 15 years. There is upward mobility in America.

 

[Gulo Blue]

what am I willfully ignoring about upward mobility? are you in the Sbee camp here, where people falsely believe it doesn't exist? there is tremendous wage mobility in America. according to IRS statistics, 90% of people born into the bottom 20% of wage earners will not be in the bottom 20% within 15 years. There is upward mobility in America.

I can dig up more links. This one is easy.

http://jhr.uwpress.org/content/43/1/139.refs

http://www.economist.com/node/3518560?story_id=3518560

 

[Gulo Blue]

where did I say any of it was exclusive to black people? none of it, including bias is. you may think it's bs but that doesn't make it bs. if you can look at a mountain of evidence and not see a shred of it, then I can't make you see it. The fact is, if you finish school, get a job and wait to have kids until you are married you won't be permanently poor in America. This pressure differential isn't the only or even the driving force behind it. you have a political party with massive influence, particularly with the black community telling everyone single parent families are no different, that people who say otherwise are wrong (and racist), that welfare is the leg up they need, not motivation to make the right value choices.

Fact is, if you are poor, you are less likely to finish school, get a job and wait to have kids until you are married.

If you aren't telling me about something that is exclusive to black people, then what are you saying, because we're talking about the persistent socioeconomic state of black Americans? How can you look at the lack of change in economic status of black America and tell me we've got great economic mobility, and there's nothing unique to the case of black people?

 

[Spartanmack]

Fact is, if you are poor, you are less likely to finish school, get a job and wait to have kids until you are married.

If you aren't telling me about something that is exclusive to black people, then what are you saying, because we're talking about the persistent socioeconomic state of black Americans? How can you look at the lack of change in economic status of black America and tell me we've got great economic mobility, and there's nothing unique to the case of black people?

Yes, that's true but that's not because of bias. You're less likely to finish school, get a job and wait until you're married to have kids because the same poor value choices keep getting made. And those poor value choices are being made, more so among black Americans because they're being told by the left, the people they vote for almost exclusively, that these value choices aren't what's keeping them poor. They're being told they're victims and since they're victims, they can't do anything about it themselves - so they place tremendous reliance on government to make their lives better. And all it's done is perpetuate the cycle of poverty. No amount of eliminating bias is going to change that - the only way out is to start making different choices.

The same is true among Indian Americans - the single worst thing they could have done was place their trust in the government to take care of them. They had a different circumstance as well - in a lot of cases it was take the deal or face extermination, but that's not the case across the board. No one has gotten more assistance from the government than the native Americans and they are by far the worst off economically of any ethnicity. There are anecdotal cases and studies that show tribes that either didn't place their fate in the hands of the government or weren't offered the same deals as those who did have thrived and they've done it without casinos.

Posting links to a bunch of studies that show bias exists doesn't prove anything about it being a primary cause of poverty. It's just proving something no one is contesting.

 

[Spartanmack]

I can dig up more links. This one is easy.

http://jhr.uwpress.org/content/43/1/139.refs

http://www.economist.com/node/3518560?story_id=3518560

It's not that easy since it contradicted by the IRS data that says the opposite. And the IRS doesn't need match people to synthetic parents, whatever that means, they track actual wages for actual people over time and find that 90% of people in the bottom 20% are out of the bottom 20% within 15 years - less than a generation.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It's not that easy since it contradicted by the IRS data that says the opposite. And the IRS doesn't need match people to synthetic parents, whatever that means, they track actual wages for actual people over time and find that 90% of people in the bottom 20% are out of the bottom 20% within 15 years - less than a generation.

Could you provide a link?

 

[Gulo Blue]

Posting links to a bunch of studies that show bias exists doesn't prove anything about it being a primary cause of poverty. It's just proving something no one is contesting.

You really don't think it's a primary cause? Is it safe to assume you are knowledgeable with regard to investing?

These racial bias studies point to a persistent influence in several aspects of life and I don't think it's a stretch to assume there are many, MANY others where a proper study hasn't been conducted, but the bias is probably there.

So what's the impact, if we think of people like investments instead of people, of some small persistent downward force, over decades? What the difference between 2 two investments where one see just 1% better returns, over decades?

I don't think you need much racial bias to explain long term tends and I think you're crazy to assert there isn't at least some small amount of a persistent downward pressure. You put those two things together, and I think it's sufficient to explain the state of things.

No theory of "people that vote democrat make bad value choices" needed.

 

[Spartanmack]

why wasn't there a compounding effect of bias against all oppressed minorities? this compounding thing is just a theory of yours - there's no concrete evidence to support your supposition. all your studies say is bias exists, there is no direct link to it and poverty, just your supposition. however, we do have an analog for another group of people who put their fate in the hands of the government to an even larger degree than black Americans and their plight is even worse - a never ending cycle of poverty far worse than that for blacks in America. perhaps the real compounding of poverty comes from the amount of government welfare relied upon.

when you accept that the causes of poverty are values based and values are a choice , it's your compounding effects of bias theory that isn't needed.

 

[Gulo Blue]

why wasn't there a compounding effect of bias against all oppressed minorities? this compounding thing is just a theory of yours - there's no concrete evidence to support your supposition. all your studies say is bias exists, there is no direct link to it and poverty, just your supposition. however, we do have an analog for another group of people who put their fate in the hands of the government to an even larger degree than black Americans and their plight is even worse - a never ending cycle of poverty far worse than that for blacks in America. perhaps the real compounding of poverty comes from the amount of government welfare relied upon.

when you accept that the causes of poverty are values based and values are a choice , it's your compounding effects of bias theory that isn't needed.

What value choice? Come on. Say it or drop it.

 

[Gulo Blue]

This compounding thing isn't just some theory of mine. It's so obviously simple that it should be self evident once you digest a few studies. I've offered to dig up more if you don'y think I've listed enough, but I think I've already listed enough.

As opposed to you with your "value choice" idea which is code for what? I don't even know. I could guess at what you're saying, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

 

[Spartanmack]

What value choice? Come on. Say it or drop it.

the choice not to finish high school - nobody forces anyone to not graduate. The choice to not wait until you're in a committed relationship to have children - nobody forces anyone to have a child out of wedlock. Those are value choices. That shouldn't be too hard to figure out. If you think that's racism, then I was wrong, you're no smarter than turd.

This compounding thing isn't just some theory of mine. It's so obviously simple that it should be self evident once you digest a few studies. I've offered to dig up more if you don'y think I've listed enough, but I think I've already listed enough.

As opposed to you with your "value choice" idea which is code for what? I don't even know. I could guess at what you're saying, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

It's not obviously simple - there's no direct link and it's not clear there's any link at all. Go ahead and dig up more if you like, all you'll be proving is that bias exists, which no one is disputing.

You said I was confusing correlation with causation but it's pretty clear that your compounding theory is classic correlation vs causation. It seems logical, so it must be true.

Code? Are you now pulling a michturd? Disagree with your massive jump to a conclusion? Must be racism. If that's the case, I think I'm done here.

 

[Gulo Blue]

So, your take, as I understand it, is that:

1) black people make bad decisions at a higher rate. They choose to not finish high school and have children out of wedlock...just because they are black.

2) other races have faced bias and overcome it, therefore whatever bias black people face should also be beatable and not a cause of their persistent economic state.

Do I have anything wrong there?

 

[Gulo Blue]

...and of course there'spoint 3, where you think 90% of the bottom 20% leave the bottom 20% in 15 years. I would like to see a citation on that point.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Code? Are you now pulling a michturd? Disagree with your massive jump to a conclusion? Must be racism. If that's the case, I think I'm done here.

No, I'm giving you every chance in the world to spell out what you mean. But it seems your position is that black people just make bad decisions, and that's the root cause of their economic situation. I'm not jumping there. It's been a slow march and even now, I'm asking you to explain if that's not your position.

 

[Michchamp]

Loudmouth bigot who never shuts up: "nuthin' wrong with spray paintin' a few swastikas here or there, or flying the Confederate flag. and blacks are poor because its their own fault. they make bad choices because that's what blacks do."

lawyer: "Those are racist statements. Ergo, You are a racist."

scientist: "now hold on here, I'm sure there's a rational explanation for his beliefs that doesn't involve racism. Let's test every possible hypothesis first."

lawyer: "LOL, haha good one. Oh, wait you're serious."